9mm hollow points vs .45 acp round nose

Gun totin fool thats nothing more then a falacy and fable about the sargents telling command the .38 cal. didn't work on the crazed drugged zombies!!!!! Better research your history better before you use it to defend yourself.

The true story of the Famed .45 was during it's development the department of war instructed the army and MR. Brown that his new pistol he was making for the army had to be of a caliber that could bring down a horse since at that time the most elite soldiers that were causing havoc within the conflicts were the calvary,they were what the seals,delta,rangers and PJ's are today,the new side arms had to bring down the horses,in doing so they stopped the charge making the clavary useless. Hence the .45acp was born!
 
I would take a 9mm + P hollow point to a hard ball .45 ACP any day of the week.

Having said that...a full size .45 ACP platform with hollow points would be even better.

...but then, if I really was going into a fight...I'd chuck both of those for a 125 grain + P .357 magnum in a heart beat.
 
Generally, I'm going to carry hollow points in my .45, but if I have to use FMJ rounds, basically range ammo, I don't feel undergunned. However, I wouldn't feel nearly as comfortable carrying a 9mm with FMJ rounds. Modern hollow points are a must for 9mm defensive use.

So I will carry either of the rounds brought up in the OP and feel well protected.
 
When I went to the NW Traffic Institute studing accident reconstruction we showed, on paper using KE that a bubble bee, if fast enough can stop a freight train. Yeap it worked on paper. Zip up the speed and increase the KE of the Bee and it can exceed the KE of the train. Thats math for you, it works, on paper, but we all know in reality it total BS.
That just kept "buzzing" around in my head.
Went online to find average sizes.
Freight train....25,000 lbs
speed 60 mph
Bee..250 milligrams.... 0.000551lbs.

The kinetic energy becomes equal when the bee hits 404,520 mph.
I generally value your expertise and your opinions Kraigwy, but the point on that one blew by me..............
 
I'm no math/science genius, and I can't explain this well, but the 25,000 mph bee hitting a train has got pretty much the same problem (to a much greater degree, I admit) as a handgun hollow-point bullet that hits bone (or anything else that's solid and dense). In theory, the handgun hollow-point may have as much energy as a handgun ball round, but much of the energy of a handgun ball round is transferred to the target. Even if a handgun ball round "overpenetrates" and exits the target, it's already "dumped" much of its energy in the target. (That's particularly true of a .45 ball round, which along with the fact that .45 ball will smash right through muscle and bone and keep on going is the reason why .45's have always been recognized as big hitters.) While it is often considered an advantage to the handgun hollow-point that it usually doesn't exit the target, meaning in theory that all of the bullets energy has been expended in the target, the fact is that much of the handgun hollow-point bullets energy is not actually transferred TO the target. Instead, it's the handgun hollow-point bullet itself that absorbs much of the hit (like a bee hitting a train), which is what deforms, flattens, slows and stops the bullet. (Hollow-point bullets in rifle calibers are far more effective than handgun hollow-points because of the much higher velocities and energy involved.)
 
Energy and bullets is pretty nebulous as you can't actually get any "work" out of a bullet - too many variables. :) Interesting for comparisons though.

.45 230 Ball ammo is just a penetrating SOB. Not sure what the jacket thickness is, but the bullets are very tough and pointed. That's one reason they tend to have very narrow, poor wound tracks, though very deep wound tracks. :cool:

The hollow point, on the other hand does increase the amount of disrupted tissue and if you shot a critter, you'd see the difference. BTW, the expansion mechanism for JHPs is fluid - that's why they work on critters and not dry newspaper. If the JHP gets clogged up, it acts just like ball ammo.

Taking what a 1980's vintage 9mm JHP did/did not do and applying that to modern JHPs is ignoring a lot of data and research. That was 23 years ago and things have changed a bit. :eek: :D

One overlooked and pretty effective handgun bullet is the SWC. The flat(er) nose makes for more damage when it impacts. It still penetrates more than a JHP, but less than ball ammo.
 
DG45 said,
Just about everybody that I've ever talked to agrees that if that particular bullet had been either a 9mm ball round or a 45ACP ball round, we'd have had a dead bad guy instead of several dead and wounded FBI Agents.

"everybody" can be wrong sometimes too. The particular bullet we are speaking of went through the fellas bicep, into the chest where it collapsed a lung, and stopped just short of the heart. That bullet would have killed him in a few minutes. There is no guarantee that had it struck the heart he would have died anytime sooner. Men have lived for several minutes with bullets in their hearts before.

The shooter was eventually killed, IIRC, by two .38 Spl. rounds to the head. This does not mean that the .38 Spl. is superior to the 9mm but it does argue for shot placement.

It may be true that the Miami shootout "exposed" the silvertip, and sent the hollow point designers back to the drawing board, and ushered in a somewhat slower to expand jacketed hollow point, which may have done a better job than a silvertip in that shootout.

In the wake of the Miami shootout the FBI went a bit goofy looking for something to replace the "underpowered" 9mm with. Because most local law enforcement agencies have no ability to test their own ammo they pay great attention to what the Justice Dept. does when it comes to ammo selection, too much maybe, and locals follow the FBIs lead. The Bureau first went to a 147 gr. subsonic load for the 9mm. They had problems with that. They then went to the 10mm and had problems with that. They then settled on the .40 S&W. All in the space of a few years.

Meanwhile every ammo manufacturer went to work on improving what they had. They followed the FBIs general guidelines and settled on 12-14" of penetration for their JHP rounds with expansion in 10% ballistic gelatin. This is about the standard these days. Some rounds are specialized to penetrate certain barriers (sheet rock, glass, etc.) and still penetrate 12-14" and expand.

tipoc
 
I always thought the Miami shoot out screamed "don't take on felons armed with rifles while you only have a handgun". That shoot out was a Charlie Foxtrot from the word go.

As far as HP vs ball. Modern day HP, in most handgun calibers, will get the job done if you do your job with shot placement. As we all know, a handgun is not a good man stopper. You need to reasearch the caliber you intend to carry. Be aware of the pros and cons of said round. And then practice, practice with your chosen platform until it's second nature to draw and fire. The after that, practice some more.
 
If and I do mean if I ever need to go to a hand gun for a defensive weapon I will not feel under gunned by the FMJ .45. I do feel under gunned by a 9mm whatever. If it happens within my home I will however be holding my 1300 with deer slugs.
 
There have been people killed with a .22 and a person jacked up on PCP take several .357 hits and still come after the police(It was on a police videos show years ago).

Point being, there are too many variables to judge what caliber is better. I have a 9mm that holds 16rds. I carry Golden Saber ammo. If I am in a situation that needs ALL 16rds, I shouldn't have been there in the first place.

As said in previous posts, shot placement IS key.

98
 
I agree that the 1986 FBI-Miami shootout exposed a lot of tactical flaws, marksmanship flaws etc., none of which has anything to do with the question that spawned this thread. However, there was one lesson learned(?) from that shootout that does bear directly on the question that was posed in this thread and that is this: In that Miami shootout a so called "perfectly placed" shot with a 9mm hollowpoint failed to stop the BG because it was slowed down and stopped short of the BG's heart by the energy loss expended in its expansion.

The shot in question was hardly "perfectly placed." Platt was shot at an oblique angle through the arm as he crawled back into his car. The Silvertip bullet actually did not fail as it did exactly what it was designed to do. The point that I'm trying to make is that saying JHP is inadequate because a relatively primative design did not stop an attacker when used under circumstances that it was never designed to is not a very convincing argument.

Just about everybody that I've ever talked to agrees that if that particular bullet had been either a 9mm ball round or a 45ACP ball round, we'd have had a dead bad guy instead of several dead and wounded FBI Agents.

Well, I don't know who you've been talking to, but the one thing almost every expert (Fackler, Marshall, Sanow, Courtney, etc.) seems to agree on is that a shot to the CNS is the only way to guarantee instantaneous incapacitation. Remember, it was determined during Platt's autopsy that the shot that "failed" to stop him would have still been fatal. There is no guarantee that Platt would have stopped any faster had the bullet reached his heart.

It may be true that the Miami shootout "exposed" the silvertip, and sent the hollow point designers back to the drawing board, and ushered in a somewhat slower to expand jacketed hollow point, which may have done a better job than a silvertip in that shootout.

The only thing that it exposed was the FBI's poor tactics. The Silvertip performed exactly as advertised and, prior to the shootout, that was what the FBI wanted. The FBI's change in their requirement sent the bullet designers back to the drawing board because no JHP in a semi-auto cartridge could meet them at the time.

But the two most critical issues are bullet placement and bullet penetration, and hollowpoints of whatever description, if they expand at all, are always detrimental to penetration. Period.

Apparently the FBI doesn't feel that it is too detrimental as they, and nearly every other major police department in the country, continue to use JHP ammunition. For the vast majority of applications, the expansion offered by JHP is more beneficial than the extra penetration of FMJ.

If you want to make a big hole, use a 45.

There is more to terminal ballistics than the diameter of the hole.
 
All things being equal, if you have a 9mm, use a good jhp. If you carry a .45, use a good jhp. Put the best bullet in your carry gun you can, and focus on speed and accuracy, and if all that fails, learn to use numchucks, because you suck with a gun.
 
Don't know, but I would prefer my G26 with Hydra-Shoks or HSTs to any of my .45s with ball. That said, I prefer and carry a .45 ACP filled with Hydra-Shoks or HSTs.
 
I think the whole argument of a .45 having a pendullum effect is hogwash.The 83 extra grains of lead isn't going to knock someone down better than a 9mm 147grn.They both hit with around 350 ft lbs average,and I think that the knock down effect is going to be about the same with either a .45acp or the 9mm.And the less than .10 caliber difference isn't going to make that much bigger of a wound channel either,what is going to make a difference though,is that a 9mm can usually carry more ammo,my point is:both are equally good man stoppers,both so close it's about equal,but the 9mm does it more efficiently.
 
I see these posts....

and always wonder where are you reading that shooting someone DID NOT SOLVE the threat?

even with a 9mm hard ball I think you would take down rasputin (with a couple of shots)

That miami shootout was a 1/trillion incident and that was law enforcement. Please post incidents where BG shot by 9mm failed to go down and then harmed V.
 
I actually load with 45 Auto Rim 255 grain LSWCs' but the question was specific: 9mm HP vs 45 ball, and IMHO 9mm HP sucks compared to 45 ball.

Now you can stage a set of conditions where a 9mm HP looks competetive. Like if no oblique angles are permitted and no beefy forearms and hands are allowed to be in the way of your bullet, etc. but in the real world, you better be prepared for that. It should be no surprise that if a BG is shooting at you, his hands and forearms as well as his ribs are going to present a significant barrier to your bullet. So, who you gonna call? I'm gonna call on my 45 because I know it'll smash right on through all that, and still get there.

But hey! Maybe nothing's enough. One respondent to this thread said maybe even a 45 bullet through the heart wouldn't have stopped BG Pratt that day in Miami. To which I say sure, and maybe Kobe Bryant will miss an open layup someday too, but what are the odds?
 
Giangrecojason

9mm hollow points vs .45 acp round nose
How do 9mm hollow points compare to .45 acp round nose as far as stopping power?
Area of a circle = Pi times the radius squared

A = π r2

Pi = 3.14159

Bullet . . . . . diameter . . . . . Radius . . . . . . Area . . . . . . percent
45acp = .451 . . . . . . . . . . 0.2255 . . . . .0.7084 . . . . . 100
44spl/44 mag = .429 . . . . . 0.2145 . . . . . 0.6739 . . . . . 95.1
10mm/40 S&W = .400 . . . . . 0.20 . . . . . . . 0.6283 . . . . . 88.7
.38/.357 mag = .357 . . . . . 0.1785. . . . . 0.5608 . . . . . 80.2
9mm/380acp = .355 . . . . . . 0.1775 . . . . . 0.5576 . . . . . 78.7

It is my opinion that the relative effectiveness of handgun bullets on humans can be predicted to some degree by calculating the product of the velocity, the mass, the area and the penetration of a bullet (to a limit of the vital tissues of a human). Multiply these four factors and you get a rough idea of the relative effectiveness of handgun bullets at handgun velocities (limited to under 2000fps). This is basically comparing momentum and wound crush volume.

It is easier to compare non-expanding bullets. Expanding bullets are a more complex comparison because any given expanding bullet might have a range of diameters during its travel through a target as it expands and it may shed mass and lose diameter on it path too.
 
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Odd discussion in some ways.

The point of hp ammo is to penetrate and expand. The expansion provides a wider wound and creates more damage than ball ammo. The expansion is also designed to minimize overpenetration. Yep all things being equal a 9mm jhp (or 45 jhp round for that matter) is designed to not penetrate as deeply as ball ammo or lead SWC or lead round nose.

JHP ammo these days, whether it's 9mm, .40 or .45 are mostly designed to penetrate and expand to about the same depth 12-14 inches in ballistic gelatin.

9mm ball ammo is known to penetrate more deeply than .45 ball.

Knowing something about the characteristics of ammo can help to match the ammo to the gun of choice and to the task in front of you. In urban environments a jhp round is likely the better choice. Whether 9 or .45 in most situations one will penetrate as deeply as the other. But a stray shot, or one that passes through an arm or leg, will not penetrate as deeply through walls, car bodies, etc. and can minimize the risk of striking the innocent.

After this it's shooters choice as to the gun and caliber they handle best. Like a lot of things it's a balance. Yep ball ammo penetrates more deeply on both the hit and the miss. JHP leaves a more devastating wound. Shooter makes a selection based on their environment and needs.

Absolute statements and relying to heavily on erroneous conclusions drawn from the FBIs reaction to one shooting (Miami) seem to me a mistake.

tipoc
 
Now you can stage a set of conditions where a 9mm HP looks competetive. Like if no oblique angles are permitted and no beefy forearms and hands are allowed to be in the way of your bullet, etc. but in the real world, you better be prepared for that. It should be no surprise that if a BG is shooting at you, his hands and forearms as well as his ribs are going to present a significant barrier to your bullet. So, who you gonna call? I'm gonna call on my 45 because I know it'll smash right on through all that, and still get there.

Modern bullets penetrate more than they really need to in most cases so as to take into account situations such as what occurred with Platt. The 12-14" that modern 9mm JHP penetrates would have been more than enough to reach Platt's heart even through his arm at the oblique angle. While .45 FMJ may penetrate more, you don't really need that extra penetration because modern JHP's have plenty already. To say that all 9mm JHP is inadequate because of the performance of an outdated design in a single, isolated incident 23 years ago is not a very convincing argument. If FMJ is really so much more dependable, perhaps you could point us to a major law-enforcement agency that still uses it. I am not aware of any (even the NYPD who were constrained to FMJ by politics for so many years have finally switched to JHP). The only major entity in this country that still uses FMJ is the military but that has more to do with politics and the Hauge convention than with effectiveness (special forces can and often do use JHP's).

But hey! Maybe nothing's enough. One respondent to this thread said maybe even a 45 bullet through the heart wouldn't have stopped BG Pratt that day in Miami. To which I say sure, and maybe Kobe Bryant will miss an open layup someday too, but what are the odds?

For those who believe a heart shot is an instant incapacitator, I present the following:

http://www.surgicalroundsonline.com/issues/articles/2007-10_07.asp

A 29-year-old woman shot herself through the heart and still had stable vital-signs upon arrival at the hospital.
 
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Charles Askins in one of his books recounts shooting a man in the heart while he was a Border Patrol Officer. According to Askins the man fought on for 2 minutes before dying of the wound. There are a number of similar accounts as well from a variety of sources. A bullet in the heart does not guarantee instant incapacitation. It takes a bit, in some more than others, before the sudden drop in blood pressure has an effect.

tipoc
 
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