Giangrecojason
New member
How do 9mm hollow points compare to .45 acp round nose as far as stopping power?
9mm hollow points vs .45 acp round nose
- Thread starter Giangrecojason
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ChicagoTex
Moderator
the very very short simple answer to your question (without going into how "there is no stopping power in a handgun" etc etc) is that a high end hollowpoint in a smaller caliber has a much better success rate than an FMJ in a larger one.
Of course you're most ideal in this situation is a .45 hollow point.
They DON'T all fall to hardball, so don't carry it.
Of course you're most ideal in this situation is a .45 hollow point.
They DON'T all fall to hardball, so don't carry it.
Dust Monkey
New member
If you put your shot where it needs to go to stop someone, it wont matter if its a 9mm HP or a 45 ball, or a 10mm hp, or a 38 special, or......
Get the picture. Shot placement....
Get the picture. Shot placement....
Just remember a little fundamental physics:
The 9mm has the option of spreading out, . . . becoming bigger, . . . and doing more damage. It also may not.
The .45 does not have the option of getting smaller, . . . doing less damage. AND, . . . it just may get bigger, . . . doing more damage.
May God bless,
Dwight
The 9mm has the option of spreading out, . . . becoming bigger, . . . and doing more damage. It also may not.
The .45 does not have the option of getting smaller, . . . doing less damage. AND, . . . it just may get bigger, . . . doing more damage.
May God bless,
Dwight
ChicagoTex
Moderator
FMJs don't "get bigger" unless they directly strike something with enough resistance to force them to mushroom - no such substance exists in the human body.
That said, you're right, an FMJ .45 won't shrink, it also won't expand to .51-.55 the way 9mm Speer Gold Dots, for example, consistently do. One also runs a higher risk of overpenetration with shooting FMJs.
ChicagoTex
Moderator
Think again. A properly engineered .45 hollow-point will expand just fine at standard velocity because they are not engineered the same as say, 9mm hollowpoints (different cavity depth and strength, etc).
Hollow points may or may not open up. They may penitrate or they may not. You can't tell what a bullets gonna do. It may be cold, the target may have heavy clothing on and the HP may open up too soon and not penitrate.
Then again it may be hot and the target may not have much clothing on and the HP may not open up at all.
I've been to enough autospies to know you can never determing what a bullet is gonna do.
But there is an old saying, THEY ALL FALL TO HARDBALL
The 45 Hard Ball is heavy, and big, it not the fastest round around but it takes a bit to slow it down. Its not a trick bullet, its a heavy plain old hard working bullet.
Ever wonder why the 45 ACP is king on bowling pin shoots. Never heard of a 9mm HP out preforming hard ball knocking over pins. Yet the 45 is already the size of a good 9 HP that opens up.
Go to a bowling alley, ever wonder why they use a big old slow bowling ball to knock over the pins instead a light ball, like a golf ball going a hundred miles an hour.
You can come up with all kinds of KE tables to show the faster 9mm works better on paper. But thats on paper.
When I went to the NW Traffic Institute studing accident reconstruction we showed, on paper using KE that a bubble bee, if fast enough can stop a freight train. Yeap it worked on paper. Zip up the speed and increase the KE of the Bee and it can exceed the KE of the train. Thats math for you, it works, on paper, but we all know in reality it total BS.
If a 9mm dont open up, then you have a small 9mm hole. It it opens up you might get a 45 cal hole, but you dont have the mass to push the little bullet through the target. The lighter weight slows down faster. Like stopping a slow train or a super fast bumble bee.
The 45 dont care, it dont need to open up. It has the diameter right out the barrel. It has the weight to give in momentum.
Forget the math & KE tables and THINK
THEY ALL FALL TO HARD BALL
oK we can throw in the 44 mag or supped up 45 LC and have veloicty and math but the subjcet was 9mm HP vs. the 45 Hard Ball so lets stick to these two.
Then again it may be hot and the target may not have much clothing on and the HP may not open up at all.
I've been to enough autospies to know you can never determing what a bullet is gonna do.
But there is an old saying, THEY ALL FALL TO HARDBALL
The 45 Hard Ball is heavy, and big, it not the fastest round around but it takes a bit to slow it down. Its not a trick bullet, its a heavy plain old hard working bullet.
Ever wonder why the 45 ACP is king on bowling pin shoots. Never heard of a 9mm HP out preforming hard ball knocking over pins. Yet the 45 is already the size of a good 9 HP that opens up.
Go to a bowling alley, ever wonder why they use a big old slow bowling ball to knock over the pins instead a light ball, like a golf ball going a hundred miles an hour.
You can come up with all kinds of KE tables to show the faster 9mm works better on paper. But thats on paper.
When I went to the NW Traffic Institute studing accident reconstruction we showed, on paper using KE that a bubble bee, if fast enough can stop a freight train. Yeap it worked on paper. Zip up the speed and increase the KE of the Bee and it can exceed the KE of the train. Thats math for you, it works, on paper, but we all know in reality it total BS.
If a 9mm dont open up, then you have a small 9mm hole. It it opens up you might get a 45 cal hole, but you dont have the mass to push the little bullet through the target. The lighter weight slows down faster. Like stopping a slow train or a super fast bumble bee.
The 45 dont care, it dont need to open up. It has the diameter right out the barrel. It has the weight to give in momentum.
Forget the math & KE tables and THINK
THEY ALL FALL TO HARD BALL
oK we can throw in the 44 mag or supped up 45 LC and have veloicty and math but the subjcet was 9mm HP vs. the 45 Hard Ball so lets stick to these two.
What he said.
There's only ONE non-expanding 45-cal projectile that is really scary, but the shape is wildly wrong for feeding in an auto:
http://www.pennbullets.com/HandgunHunter/HandgunHunter.html
Bottom picture tells the story: it's a 270gr "giant wadcutter from hell". In a revolver it would be a viable choice.
There's also a 230gr 357 variant that interests me, soon as I start handloading...
There's only ONE non-expanding 45-cal projectile that is really scary, but the shape is wildly wrong for feeding in an auto:
http://www.pennbullets.com/HandgunHunter/HandgunHunter.html
Bottom picture tells the story: it's a 270gr "giant wadcutter from hell". In a revolver it would be a viable choice.
There's also a 230gr 357 variant that interests me, soon as I start handloading...
ChicagoTex
Moderator
that's bull and you know it.
Your arguments in favor of the .45 are generally valid, and you may even be right. But that irritating, foolhardy, nonsensical axiom has got to go.
2cooltoolz
New member
Tell me again about the bee and the freight train....
Oh...by the way...cheers
Oh...by the way...cheers
It's absurd to claim that math "doesn't matter in reality". That's completely false.
Math is often improperly applied, and I would argue that's possible in this case. Your claim that one should "forget the math and think" is just laughable.
A bumblebee with enough speed WOULD stop a freight train if the freight train was firm enough to actually absorb the force of the ultra-lightspeed bumblebee instead of the bumblebee just cutting though it like a knife though butter. Your idea of what really happens doesn't override the laws of physics or mathematical proof.
I don't disagree with your main point, which is .45 vs. 9mm, but the way you made your point (ignore the math) is silly.
Math is often improperly applied, and I would argue that's possible in this case. Your claim that one should "forget the math and think" is just laughable.
A bumblebee with enough speed WOULD stop a freight train if the freight train was firm enough to actually absorb the force of the ultra-lightspeed bumblebee instead of the bumblebee just cutting though it like a knife though butter. Your idea of what really happens doesn't override the laws of physics or mathematical proof.
I don't disagree with your main point, which is .45 vs. 9mm, but the way you made your point (ignore the math) is silly.
I understand the importance of shot placement, and recognize that good shot placement can trump inferior bullet design or caliber in many instances.
Hope you're not saying that a well placed .45ACP JHP of good design offers no advantage over a lesser caliber or inferior bullet design when both are properly placed.
Question is: Do you get the picture?
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ChicagoTex
Moderator
With the caveat that I'm not an expert on human anatomy, I will say that I can't think of a case where that would be true (assuming your goal is to forcibly stop your assailant as quickly and effectively as possible, with no regard to preserve your assailant's life).
Since no one sane would make that argument, I would speculate that what he MEANT was with proper shot placement the difference (while present) would have little meaning to you in a defensive context (i.e. in both cases your assailant might go down, but the .45 might kill him where the 9mm wouldn't). This is a point I generally agree with.
Although at the same time I'll concede/point out that larger diameter does give you more "margin for error" on just how precise your shot placement must be; but then a key point of my argument is that you'll get more margin from the 9mm hollowpoint.
My point is that a larger expanding bullet does, in many cases, cause more damage and affect quicker incapacitation. How could it not?
And you MAY assume that the goal is to forcibly stop my assailant as quickly as possible.
As for "with no regard to preserve your assailant's life", why would you throw that in there? I have regard for my life. That's why I like effective calibers with better bullet technology, and don't agree that a hit square to the chest with, say, a .380 is equal to the same with the .357 SIG, .45ACP, or .40 S&W.
I'm not longer amused at the silly notion that a hit in the right place with any caliber or bullet is as effective as the same hit with a better caliber using better bullets. And I'm not implying that the latter takes the place of proper bullet placement.
ChicagoTex
Moderator
Mostly just so I could clearly establish that the priority was cessation of attack. The most effective points to shoot are in many (all?) cases the most deadly as well. If one was concerned with preserving their assailants life, it would likely mitigate their choices in shot placement (at the expense of overall effectiveness - which is why all defensive training teaches you to shoot without regard for the preservation of the assailant).
That's fair enough, and we are in agreement.
You're probably right. However, it would seem logical that there is some threshold (which admittedly would vary from person to person) as to what rounds are "enough" and anything bigger or more powerful is "overkill". I agree it's an extremely gray area, and I won't be so foolhardy as to claim that a 9mm, hollowpoint or otherwise, is always, often, or even usually "enough" - as such a statement would require evidence I simply don't have. On a certain level, it comes down to confidence - I am confident that with proper shot placement myself, the Glock 26 I carry almost all the time, and and it's 10+1 124gr +p gold dots can "get the job done" if necessary. Am I "more confident" with a .40 or .45? I'd be lying if I said no, but in all cases I am "confident enough" for my own satisfaction.
Returning to the original subject, however, I'd be more confident in the performance of the aforementioned gold dots than .45 FMJ.
Knocking over bowling pins is dependent on momentum--it has nothing to do with bullet diameter. Momentum is the product of mass & velocity.
KE is not what needs to be equal in order to know if one moving object can stop another in a collision. What needs to be equal is momentum.
A bumble bee can not stop a freight train--to have momentum equal to a typical freight train it would need to be going around 50 times the speed of light which is completely impossible. IF we ignore that impossibility and several other impossibilities presented by such ridiculous speeds--we arrive at the conclusion that a bumble bee moving that fast would have a KE of that is very roughly equivalent to the amount of energy released by the largest nuclear weapon ever exploded.
I suppose that would stop a freight train...
T.A.Sharps
New member
First of all Forget about shot placement.
The cavity you see in the ballistics gelatin does not matter, the FBI tested this already. The shock wave that creates the cavity in the ballistic gelatin is not a permanent cavity, the elasticity of human tissue causes it to return back to a "normal" state.
What they found to be the most affective, NOT THE END ALL BE ALL, is a larger diameter bullet, because of the larger permanent wound channel it makes, without expansion, making it more likely to incompasitate faster.
The cartridges that performed the best were the 10mm, 45ACP, and one other that I can't remember right now.
Also, they tested how effective HP's perform. Since you are very unlikely to be shooting at a naked bad guy, they covered them in light clothing material. What they found was the material actually clogs the hollow tip and does not allow the expansion to happen so well.
I'm not saying you can't kill someone with a 9mm, but I am saying that the FBI says the .45 is the more effective at doing so.
The cavity you see in the ballistics gelatin does not matter, the FBI tested this already. The shock wave that creates the cavity in the ballistic gelatin is not a permanent cavity, the elasticity of human tissue causes it to return back to a "normal" state.
What they found to be the most affective, NOT THE END ALL BE ALL, is a larger diameter bullet, because of the larger permanent wound channel it makes, without expansion, making it more likely to incompasitate faster.
The cartridges that performed the best were the 10mm, 45ACP, and one other that I can't remember right now.
Also, they tested how effective HP's perform. Since you are very unlikely to be shooting at a naked bad guy, they covered them in light clothing material. What they found was the material actually clogs the hollow tip and does not allow the expansion to happen so well.
I'm not saying you can't kill someone with a 9mm, but I am saying that the FBI says the .45 is the more effective at doing so.