9mm federal hst 147gr vs. federal hst 124 gr

[JCP281]

I never equated kinetic energy to killing power, I just showed the true physical relationships between the bullets and gave my opinion on the results. In a gun fight, I would rather have the potential to transfer the most energy into a target. Their organs will definitely feel it.

 

[WESHOOT2]

flawed beyond reason

The most effective projectile weight for .355" bullets (by "effective" I mean for shooting people to make them desist) is 124g.
Also good are the 127s and some 115s.

The 147g renders itself in the 38 Special class.

 

[mavracer]

I never equated kinetic energy to killing power, I just showed the true physical relationships between the bullets and gave my opinion on the results. In a gun fight, I would rather have the potential to transfer the most energy into a target. Their organs will definitely feel it.

Not only do you contridict yourself, you don't even belive what you say.

In all actuality the 115 grain bullett hits with the most energy, but i worry sometimes that its to much velocity for its own good.

The most effective projectile weight for .355" bullets (by "effective" I mean for shooting people to make them desist) is 124g.

You have any data that is not from 20 year old statistics that supports this.
IE you have any data showing the loads in question here.
The proof is in the pudding (or jello as the case may be)
If you look at the actual tests in my last post you will note that the 147 consistantly expanded similar diameters while out penatrating the 124 by an inch ot two.
one notable exception was the auto glass test the 124 did out penatrate the 147 but only because the 124 failed to expand.

 

[mavracer]

I never equated kinetic energy to killing power, I just showed the true physical relationships between the bullets and gave my opinion on the results. In a gun fight, I would rather have the potential to transfer the most energy into a target. Their organs will definitely feel it.

Not only do you contridict yourself, you don't even belive what you say.

In all actuality the 115 grain bullett hits with the most energy, but i worry sometimes that its to much velocity for its own good.

The most effective projectile weight for .355" bullets (by "effective" I mean for shooting people to make them desist) is 124g.

You have any data that is not from 20 year old statistics that supports this.
IE you have any data showing the loads in question here.
The proof is in the pudding (or jello as the case may be)
If you look at the actual tests in my last post you will note that the 147 consistantly expanded similar diameters while out penatrating the 124 by an inch ot two.
one notable exception was the auto glass test the 124 did out penatrate the 147 but only because the 124 failed to expand.

 

[JCP281]

LOL, how do I contradict anything I say? Your just grasping at dust in the air it seems to disprove my work(which is 100% accurate). All I did was show the relationship of mass to kinetic energy and velocity, thats it! Just because something has more kinetic energy doesnt mean that it will have the time to transfer it all into a target(hence what I said about a 115 grain). If you have that much velocity, your likely going to zip through your target with a bad shot instead of the bullet being able to slow down on the soft organs and transfer all the energy. That was pretty much implied by my statement, didnt think I needed to write it out.

You have provided nothing in this conversation in the realm of any mechanical relationship via physics. Your main argument was momentum(which I showed was a moot point), so I dont see how you keep saying im wrong.

Again, until you show me some some kind of physical relationship that disproves anything I said(which you cant because im right, look at any text book and it will show you the same thing), im pretty much taking anything you say with a big grain of salt.

 

[tipoc]

The links which mavracer posted on the tests for the 9mm and the 40 S&W are worth taking a look at and studying some. I believe that when you do that a few points that are relevant to this discussion come through.

One: about 20 years ago the FBI established a protocol that jhp ammo should expand and penetrate to between 12-14" in 10% ballistic gelatin for them to consider it useful to them. Ammo manufacturers worked hard to acheive that. So you will note that the bulk of ammo from 9mm to 45acp tested in the workshops posted does just that irregardless of caliber or bullet weight. The rounds that do not and penetrate further tend to be where the hollowpoint clogged and the ammo acted as ball does. This is useful information.

The rounds that were heavier tended to penetrate an inch or so more.

A good deal of energy is transferred through expansion. When the round does not expand, or not fully expand, that energy is available and used most often in penetration.

Quality jhp ammo of today tends to penetrate and expand to 12-14" in ballistic gelatin no matter what caliber of bullet weight.

tipoc

 

[mavracer]

you say you don't equate kenetic energy to stopping power and yet you wield it like a sword.proclaiming the 124's superiority because of it.

my arguement that momentum had a more prolific effect is substantiated by the actual tests. Just because you state opinion as fact IE

but 2.21% is negligible in real world conditions.

does not make it true as I posted the tests that prove in the real world that the momentum of the 147 does in fact lead to superior penatration with nearly equal expansion.

Again, until you show me some some kind of physical relationship that disproves anything I said

FOLLOW THE LINK THE PROOF IS THERE IN THE REAL PHYSICAL TESTS
http://le.atk.com/pdf/PortlandWoundBallisticReport1.pdf

 

[Noreaster]

JCP when I was referring to the 147 standard being similar to the 124 +p in performance I wasn't refering to velocity or KE. Testing of Winchester Ranger, Fed HST, and Speer GD showed better penetration, (not much better,) with the 147 grain 9mm and similar expansion (all the 9mm 147 & 124+p or +P+ were .62 and up, though one +P+ was .70.)

The Winchester Ranger 147 grain 9mm penetrated better then the +p and the 357 Sig. The 357 sig expanded to .63 and the 147 grain 9mm expanded to .62. Pretty darn close. The 9mm 147 grain also penetrated better then the 40 S&W, but the 40 S&W expanded to .68.

 

[Manco]

While 147 grain JHP 9mm loads have been suspect in the past, the HST and the most updated versions of its competitors now perform well in terms of expansion reliability, and in general I personally prefer heavier bullets for their edge in penetrating soft, squishy things (e.g. bad guys). In the case of two specific loads (124 and 147 grain HST) in a specific gun, however, I would recommend shooting both to find out which works better for you in terms of point of impact, recoil, etc. because both should be pretty close in effectiveness overall.

 

[WESHOOT2]

math vs common sense (and what's actually in the chamber)

I note that regardless of the 147g performance in labratory testing, the 115--127g .355" projectiles continue to be the ones issued, whether in the 9x19 or 357 SIG.

When even the most effective 147g projectile gets launched in the 9x19, its velocity is of the 38 Special variety.

Think about the clean-sheet 357 SIG cartridge, designed from its inception with the 125g weight in mind. Any heavier projectile could have been chosen during its development, but those involved picked the bullet weight they expected to be the most effective for stopping people.

Static testing in the laboratory can prove varied concepts, but active testing on people provides us significant proofs.

 

[mavracer]

I note that regardless of the 147g performance in labratory testing, the 115--127g .355" projectiles continue to be the ones issued, whether in the 9x19 or 357 SIG.

Again with opinions stated as fact. I know that many LE in fact do issue 147gr HST and Ranget-T series some have even switched from the lighter bullets.

When even the most effective 147g projectile gets launched in the 9x19, its velocity is of the 38 Special variety.

A: the 158gr +P LSWCHP (The FBI load) has an exellent street reputation.B: the 9mm 147 adds a little over 100 fps.and C: I'm not sure what your getting at with this arguement. I mean that's a kin to saying "you hit like a girl" and pointing to Layla Ali.

Think about the clean-sheet 357 SIG cartridge, designed from its inception with the 125g weight in mind. Any heavier projectile could have been chosen during its development, but those involved picked the bullet weight they expected to be the most effective for stopping people.

The .357 sig was designed with a singular purpose to duplicate the vaunted 125gr 357 Magnum ballistics in a service size auto.Choosing a different bullet weight would have been kinda counter productive.

Static testing in the laboratory can prove varied concepts, but active testing on people provides us significant proofs.

Just where do you go to test your new loads on people
look 30 years ago 115 Silver tips were concidered one of the best 9mm loads one failed and started all this ammo testing.they go to the lab redesign and then send it out on the street. 20 years ago 147gr 9mm didn't expand consistantly they went to the lab and redesigned it.They work now as proved in the lab and on the street. Is the 147 better than the 124 for the true answer to that I'm going to need to know the exact bullet path through Mr Badguy so I know weather I want 1" more penatration or is that temporary cavity going to tear open that one vessel. Given the fact that no one can tell me that and Common Sense tells me 99.9% of the time it's not gonna matter. I'll stick with what works in the gun and hits POA.

 

[JCP281]

you say you don't equate kenetic energy to stopping power and yet you wield it like a sword.proclaiming the 124's superiority because of it.

my arguement that momentum had a more prolific effect is substantiated by the actual tests. Just because you state opinion as fact IE
Quote:
but 2.21% is negligible in real world conditions.
does not make it true as I posted the tests that prove in the real world that the momentum of the 147 does in fact lead to superior penatration with nearly equal expansion.

I just wanted to point out that the momentum of the bullets does not explain why the 147 grain has more penetration. Its not momentum, its inertia(an objects resistance to change).

I did a quick statistical analysis on a data set and came up with the averages of both 124 grain and 147 grain penetration. When I took the percent differences between the 2, I came out with 11.55%. Before I took the average, I also did the high and low value percent difference between the 124 and 147 and came up with basically the same 17% difference that I got with the mass percent difference. So you can see that its the inertia of the heavier mass 147 grain that allows it to penetrate a little further, not momentum.

If it was in fact momentum, the 2% figure would have reared its head, which it did not. So again, the momentum is negligible in this case because momentum is dependent on velocity.

And never did I say KE was the end all be all data point, but it sure does let you know how much potential the bullet has at creating damage and stopping someone. Something I find rather important in my short barrel CC pistol.

 

[camsdaddy]

Physics wise you guys lost me a long time ago in this conversation. I would like to ask which weight bullet are most fixed sighted 9mm sighted for? POI=POA

 

[DonutGuy]

I like the 147 for medium to full size autos and the 124 for subcompacts.

 

[mathman]

Shoot the load that you can shoot more accurately...the rest is purely academic. Meaning that it doesn't matter. As long as you use newer designed bullets, they both expand fine.

I like the 147s because my gun shoots them better (more accurately and slightly less recoil impulse). 147s are NOT too heavy...they come out of the muzzle of my gun just fine.

 

[Coltman 77]

I would like to ask which weight bullet are most fixed sighted 9mm sighted for? POI=POA

I have read many times it is the 124 grain but don't have a definitive source.

 

[ltc444]

bullet performance

I am assuming that you are looking for a defense load. From a practical performance stand point any high quality JHP bullet will work.

The most important issue is what happens after you defend yourself. That being the case you should probably use the same bullet carried by your local law enforcement. This prevents an over zealous assistant Attorney General from protraying your bullet selection as a premediated act to commit murder.

Yes it happens in AZ.

 

[tipoc]

I would like to ask which weight bullet are most fixed sighted 9mm sighted for?

The standard for many decades has been the 115 gr bullet with the 124 widely used as well. Standards for fixed sight guns are set at either 25 yards or 25 meters with either a poa/poi hold or a 6 o'clock hold on a 6" bull. This varies with manufacturer. The difference between the poi with the 124 and 115 gr. bullets will be only two to three inches at 25 yards. Not much difference in the real world. The 147 will vary a bit more.

I have a couple of H-Powers which are set for the 124 while a CZ75 I have seems to be set for the 115.

Shoot some of each weight to see how they work in your gun.

tipoc

 

[WESHOOT2]

logic has convinced me

I will no longer advocate for the 124g weight, the one many +P loads and the 357 SIG bring into the vaunted 357 Magnum range.
I will instead advocate for the 147g, the one that gets near the 158g +P 38.

 

[mavracer]

I just wanted to point out that the momentum of the bullets does not explain why the 147 grain has more penetration. Its not momentum, its inertia(an objects resistance to change).

Really What's the formula for figuring inertia.LOL
yes inertia is the principle at work here but since we are talking about a object in motion being stopped, it is most certainly it's momentum which must be stopped.

I did a quick statistical analysis on a data set and came up with the averages of both 124 grain and 147 grain penetration. When I took the percent differences between the 2, I came out with 11.55%. Before I took the average, I also did the high and low value percent difference between the 124 and 147 and came up with basically the same 17% difference that I got with the mass percent difference. So you can see that its the inertia of the heavier mass 147 grain that allows it to penetrate a little further, not momentum

I would point out that I never argued that it's greater momentum did not come from it's greater mass.I would also point out if your theory that it is the 147s mass that allows it to penatrate further you wouldn't need the gun you could just throw them.

If it was in fact momentum, the 2% figure would have reared its head, which it did not. So again, the momentum is negligible in this case because momentum is dependent on velocity.

And never did I say KE was the end all be all data point, but it sure does let you know how much potential the bullet has at creating damage and stopping someone. Something I find rather important in my short barrel CC pistol.

just exacticly where did your 25% more energy go in your statistical analisis.

I will no longer advocate for the 124g weight, the one many +P loads and the 357 SIG bring into the vaunted 357 Magnum range.

where is the 124+p 9mm that has 600 ft.lbs of energy.cause now we're talking about energy figures that might make a difference and still be able to keep me happy with their penatration.
Try reading much of the information here http://www.ballisticstestinggroup.org/ you may well get a better grasp of what energy levels must be in order to start having a real effect.
and even at that there is not a point that it starts to happen.you must have a pretty drastic change in the amount of energy, before the measured results would be signifigant. IE it doesn't happen when going from a light 9mm to a heavy 9mm(100 ft.lbs.) but it will be a measurable difference when going from a heavy 9mm or 38+p to a light 357magnum where you double the energy from near 300 to over 600.

Now you want to argue that a full tilt 357 is better than the 147 9mm. Well then I'm inclined to agree because not only does it have a signifigant energy advantage but a good edge in momentum too.