9mm federal hst 147gr vs. federal hst 124 gr

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dean1197

New member
Any input onto the pros and cons of each, and ultimately, which would you recommend?
I would like to go with 147gr, but i've heard (keep in mind heard) things about them.

1. The first being that i've heard they over penetrate, which concerns me because not all of the bullets energy is being displaced into the target like it should be, and I wouldn't be surprised if this is true.

2. Another thing i've heard is that the bullets themselves lack the necessary velocity to expand reliably in the target.

So, between the 2 which would you guys recommend (my primary question) and also, is there any validity to my 2 assumptions concerning the 147 gr. listed above.
 
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Just opinion,........

I personally tend to gravitate toward the 124gr as 147 I think to heavy for the 9mm cartridge to try to push,... well. 147 is I believe considered a sub-sonic round, which explains its over penetration and non-expansion. Take a look at this though, I found it interesting.
http://frag.110mb.com/

Even though his experiment went well the 124gr is tried and true and the 147gr could be questionable. YMMV. I know I want what has the best possible chance to expand with good penetration rather than the chance of not expanding and over penetration. Just my opinion for what its worth.
 
dean1197

What pistol do you shoot? My S&W 469 likes 147s I've had a few FTE's with 124s, my wife has a (new to her) 469 also, same thing.
 
I too have questions

I am currently loaded with 147 Hydrashoks, the same loads that the Mi State Police used to carry, and was considering the 124's instead. I figured if the State Police were using the 147's then that must be a pretty darn good load. Why would the 147's have less energy than the 124's?
 
First off the 147 garnered the reputation for plugging up and not expanding causing the overpenatration early on from old designed hollow points.the newer technology of reverse taper jackets and bonding has made this a thing of the past.the HST is a great bullet and will expand properly under a wide variety of circumstances. the 124gr works well too although I prefer the +p version IMHO that extra 100fps is a big plus.
That said you need to make sure they function in your gun, this includes POA=POI. as 147s tend to shoot a little higher.
I have a few 9mm some I use 147gr ranger-t some I use 124+p golddots I would switch either out to the same load HSTs in a heartbeat.

BTW Qtiphky the 147 hydra shok was one of the ones often sited for plugging up. I'd shoot em up and find something of newer design.
 
I am currently loaded with 147 Hydrashoks, the same loads that the Mi State Police used to carry, and was considering the 124's instead. I figured if the State Police were using the 147's then that must be a pretty darn good load. Why would the 147's have less energy than the 124's?
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Simple answer to your question:

use K=.5mv^2 and go see for yourself if his statement is true. :D


my logic test using standard pressure speer gold dots:

147 speer gold dot: 985=v 317=k
124 Speer gold dot: 1150=v 364=k
___________________________________________


Calculations:

Calculating mass of 147 grain bullet:

(2)317ftlb=m
----------
985^2ft/s

m(147)=0.000653456672 slug


Calculating mass of 124 grain bullet:


(2)364ftlb=m
--------
1150^2ft/s

m(124)=0.000547448015 slug

*slug is the unit of mass for the English system
________________________________________________
Analysis:

You can see that the difference in mass for the 2 bullets is only 0.000106008657

Doing a quick calculation for % difference we can see that:

Answer:

Calculate percentage difference
between V1 = 0.00065345 and V2 = 0.000547448015

( | V1 - V2 | / ((V1 + V2)/2) ) * 100

= ( | 0.00065345 - 0.000547448015 | / ((0.00065345 + 0.000547448015)/2) ) * 100
= ( | 0.000106001985 | / (0.001200898015/2) ) * 100
= ( 0.000106001985 / 0.0006004490075 ) * 100
= 0.176538 * 100

= 17.6538% difference
______________________________________



Conclusion:

The reason that the kinetic energy of a 147grain bullet has significantly less energy is due to its mass. The extra mass is causing the velocity to decrease, which in this case velocity is a squared quantity. any time you increase mass in a system, the kinetic energy will drop significantly due to the amplified rate of change of the velocity.

Hopefully that answered your question.
 
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What?

OK, I am not an engineer and trust your math skills. That being said, you recommend the 124's?

Mavracer- thanks for the reply, I thought the hydrashoks were what they went to to improve expansion? Must have heard that backwards.
 
JCP281, now I need an aspirin - my head hurts. I have a hard enough time with basic numbers and haven't done equations like that in .... a long time. ;)
 
I thought the hydrashoks were what they went to to improve expansion? Must have heard that backwards.
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they did and for the most part they work good. some however would get plugged with clothing or sheetrock or other stuff, the 147gr 9mm was [my opinion] more prone to this due to the lower velocity and small opening [my opinion] the 230gr 45 worked pretty good and the 240gr 44mag is awesome but it's running as fast as a 124gr 9mm:eek:

Also this is now why ammo testers do barrier penatration tests.
try this link I think you'll find it informative
http://le.atk.com/pdf/San.pdf
 
OK, I am not an engineer and trust your math skills. That being said, you recommend the 124's?
Click to expand...

LOL dont worry, im not an engineer either. Im actually an education major. I got my AS in Engineering, but after working in the field for about 2 year decided thats not what I want to do with my life. But I still retaine all my problem solving/physics skills :D. Now I get to torture 8th graders in algebra haha.

Back on topic, I would (and do) choose 124 grain. Thats a whole lot of kinetic energy left on the table by using a 147 grain.

I tend to look at things a lot more scientifically to base my decisions off of. Numerically the 124 makes more since, but you know how people are with the bigger is better type mentality. In all actuality the 115 grain bullett hits with the most energy, but i worry sometimes that its to much velocity for its own good. So I chose the happy medium.
 
I carry the 147 grain for the performance and it's very similar to the +p 124 grain without the +p wear and tear on the firearm. I believe several PDs carry the +p or +p+ 124 grain, (Miami Dade, NYPD...) and don't have any issue with over use on the guns. You probably wouldn't shoot the expensive +p stuff all the time because of $ so excessive wear wouldn't be an issue. The 124 +p do appear to expand alittle better.

When looking at the 147 grain be carefull because the articles from the 80s and early 90s the ammo wasn't as good and didn't always expand. The stuff out there now seems to do very well.
 
How do you figure 147 grain standard pressure is similar to 124+P?

410~ ftlbs of energy vs 317~ftlbs. Thats a HUGE difference IMO(25.58% to be exact).

The standard pressure 124g already outshines the heavier 147 grain slug, I dont see your logic. :confused:
 
Because kenetic energy really is not the end all measurement for ballistics. It was pushed by Roy Weatherby and his hydrostatic shock theory. Momentum plays a large roll in penatration and the 147gr has more momentum. Since energy is defined as the ability to do work , part of the work done is to enter the body and exxpand the slug since more of the 124 gr bullets energy comes from velocity it loses more velocity preforming this work. Which is why if you look at wound chaannels the 124s will be slightly larger early in it's path. But now momentum takes over for penatration that's where big bullets shine because they're still heavier. Look at the various gel penatration test and check out the actual damage done they're a lot closer than energy figures.
 
Because kenetic energy really is not the end all measurement for ballistics. It was pushed by Roy Weatherby and his hydrostatic shock theory. Momentum plays a large roll in penatration and the 147gr has more momentum. Since energy is defined as the ability to do work , part of the work done is to enter the body and exxpand the slug since more of the 124 gr bullets energy comes from velocity it loses more velocity preforming this work. Which is why if you look at wound chaannels the 124s will be slightly larger early in it's path. But now momentum takes over for penatration that's where big bullets shine because they're still heavier. Look at the various gel penatration test and check out the actual damage done they're a lot closer than energy figures.
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I disagree, heres my proof:

Kinetic energy=1/2mv^2

Momentum=mv


The difference in momentum between the 2 is 2.21% difference. Yes, a 147 grain slug DOES have more momentum, but 2.21% is negligible in real world conditions.

Furthermore, Momentum is a function of kinetic energy, and can be written as:

k=p^2/2m

This shows you that the momentum is a direct relative to kinetic energy, so
using momentum as a basis for this argument is a moot point, because it still comes back to kinetic energy.
 
Your proof is flawed
Momertum is a factor of kenetic energy.
Kenetic energy is a function of momentum.
Momentum is a real and can be measured.
Kenetic energy is theoretical and must be figured.
 
Flawed how, that formula exists and is used to determine hard numbers.

I showed proof via physical law... until you show me different, ill stick with my hard facts.

EDIT: There is no formula that you can toss out that will prove anything I showed today incorrect. Mr. Newton has me covered on this one. :p
 
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From the TFL library.

Energy (of motion) - Kinetic energy or force carried by a bullet at that point in its trajectory. In common use and popular shooting literature it is expressed in foot-pounds, one ft/lbs being the amount of force required to lift a one-pound weight one foot above the ground. Formula: Energy ( in ft/lbs ) equals bullet weight ( in grains ) multiplied by the velocity ( in feet per second ) squared, divided by 450240. Often wrongly equated with killing power, energy is not a reliable gauge of this, as it does not take into account penetration or bullet performance.
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