8x57 Projectile Weight
- Thread starter Gregory Gauvin
- Start date
Gregory Gauvin
New member
So I have heard. Because of the risk of firing 8x57 Mauser out of a .318 bore.
I recently looked up the ballistics of PPU ammunition. The PPU ammunition I have fired in the past deemed to be quite accurate and of good quality. I have not fired any of their 8mm Mauser ammunition, however.
(All ballistic tests from 24" barrel)
PPU - 8x57 Mauser:
175grn @ 2329ft/sec
198grn @ 2182ft/sec
PPU - .30-06
150grn @ 2749ft/sec (A-612) - M1 Ball load equivalent?
150grn @ 2903ft/sec (A-094)
175grn @ 2723ft/sec
190grn @ 2625ft/sec
PPU - .308 Win
150grn @ 2903ft/sec
175grn @ 2592ft/sec
190grn @ 2477ft/sec
PPU - 300 win mag
150grn @ 3248ft/sec
170grn @ 2871ft/sec
These commercial 8x57 loads are puppy dogs. The 308win outclasses them. The 154grn Turkish loads clock in 2900ft/sec, however, some chronograph results gave them an average of 3058ft/sec. Seems to be an intermediary cartridge between the .308 and 300 win mag with an intermediate length action. Don't see why the 8x57 is more popular among hunting rifles as, if you are a reloader, have the ability to download them to levels appropriate as to not overkill smaller game such as deer as compared to moose, where you can push them to energy levels close to that of a 300 win mag without stepping up to a long, belted magnum case/action.
I develop loads for accuracy - not power. I'm not a hunter. So, whether I tweak a load on the low spectrum or hotter spectrum, it is what it is. I start load development at minimum load and work up until I hit the first accuracy node. I see no reason to beat myself, my guns, and my wallet apart to put holes in paper.
I recently looked up the ballistics of PPU ammunition. The PPU ammunition I have fired in the past deemed to be quite accurate and of good quality. I have not fired any of their 8mm Mauser ammunition, however.
(All ballistic tests from 24" barrel)
PPU - 8x57 Mauser:
175grn @ 2329ft/sec
198grn @ 2182ft/sec
PPU - .30-06
150grn @ 2749ft/sec (A-612) - M1 Ball load equivalent?
150grn @ 2903ft/sec (A-094)
175grn @ 2723ft/sec
190grn @ 2625ft/sec
PPU - .308 Win
150grn @ 2903ft/sec
175grn @ 2592ft/sec
190grn @ 2477ft/sec
PPU - 300 win mag
150grn @ 3248ft/sec
170grn @ 2871ft/sec
These commercial 8x57 loads are puppy dogs. The 308win outclasses them. The 154grn Turkish loads clock in 2900ft/sec, however, some chronograph results gave them an average of 3058ft/sec. Seems to be an intermediary cartridge between the .308 and 300 win mag with an intermediate length action. Don't see why the 8x57 is more popular among hunting rifles as, if you are a reloader, have the ability to download them to levels appropriate as to not overkill smaller game such as deer as compared to moose, where you can push them to energy levels close to that of a 300 win mag without stepping up to a long, belted magnum case/action.
I develop loads for accuracy - not power. I'm not a hunter. So, whether I tweak a load on the low spectrum or hotter spectrum, it is what it is. I start load development at minimum load and work up until I hit the first accuracy node. I see no reason to beat myself, my guns, and my wallet apart to put holes in paper.
Gregory, I agree with you. I wasn't referring to commercial Mauser ammo as "dung" in terms of power, but instead accuracy in a particular rifle. (though I did not make that clear... ooops.) Sorry for the confusion.
I only load just hot enough to get the job done. I used to hunt, so I loaded accordingly (but never maximum loads). Now, I load strictly for accuracy. In fact, my current favorite 8mm load mimics the ballistics of a 30/30 - wimpy, by 8mm standards - but darned accurate in my rifle.
You said it very well: why beat yourself up in order to punch holes in paper.
I only load just hot enough to get the job done. I used to hunt, so I loaded accordingly (but never maximum loads). Now, I load strictly for accuracy. In fact, my current favorite 8mm load mimics the ballistics of a 30/30 - wimpy, by 8mm standards - but darned accurate in my rifle.
You said it very well: why beat yourself up in order to punch holes in paper.
When the 8X57 was introduced, it had a 0.318 bore, and was later changed to .323, and because of this, most of the ammo you can get in the US is crap.
US manufacturers were afraid some dimwit would try and shoot a full power .323 through their .318 bore Gewehr 88 and blow up the gun, and hurt themselves. Europeans figured if you don't know what ammo your gun can safely shoot, you are a moron and deserve whatever happens to you.
Regardless, there are two specifications for what we call 8mm Mauser, the US SAMMI spec "8MM Mauser", which has a max pressure of 35K psi, and the CIP "8x57 IS" which has a max pressure of ~56K psi. To further muddy the waters, "8x57 IS" is often written as "8x57 JS, evidently because the Germans used a Gothic script, and the I looked like a J.
Generally, what you can get in the US is "8MM Mauser", and it the anemic SAMMI spec.
Privi Partisan actually makes both, if you look at their online catalog, they have entries for both "8MM Mauser" and "8x57 IS", with the latter having a higher velocity for the same bullet. For example, the "8x57" IS 198 gr FMJ is 2425 FPS, (essentially the 1934+ military load), but the "8MM Mauser" 198 gr FMJ is only 2180 FPS. Naturally, they only sell the wimpy stuff in the US.
Wolf Gold is made by Privi and loaded to 8x57 IS specs, 196 gr SP @ 2461 fps, but I haven't seen it around in a while.
Remington's and Winchester's only offerings is 170 gr @ 2360fps. Federal's only option is even wimpier 170gr @ 2250 FPS.
These are barely over the velocity as the starting load in my Sierra and Hornady manuals for similar weight bullets.
Hornady and Nosler seem to be the only US folks making "real" 8x57 ammo, Hornady has two options, a 195 hunting bullet and a 196 gr match, both @ 2500 FPS, which is pretty close to the original military load.
Nosler has a 200gr AccuBond or Partition at 2475 fps, and a 180gr Ballistic tip at 2600 FPS, but they are really proud of them, at about $2.50 per round.
Seller & Belot and Norma both make a few 196 loads at ~2600 FPS, but availability is spotty, and while the price on the S&B is decent, the Norma stuff is up in the $2.50/round neighborhood.
US manufacturers were afraid some dimwit would try and shoot a full power .323 through their .318 bore Gewehr 88 and blow up the gun, and hurt themselves. Europeans figured if you don't know what ammo your gun can safely shoot, you are a moron and deserve whatever happens to you.
Regardless, there are two specifications for what we call 8mm Mauser, the US SAMMI spec "8MM Mauser", which has a max pressure of 35K psi, and the CIP "8x57 IS" which has a max pressure of ~56K psi. To further muddy the waters, "8x57 IS" is often written as "8x57 JS, evidently because the Germans used a Gothic script, and the I looked like a J.
Generally, what you can get in the US is "8MM Mauser", and it the anemic SAMMI spec.
Privi Partisan actually makes both, if you look at their online catalog, they have entries for both "8MM Mauser" and "8x57 IS", with the latter having a higher velocity for the same bullet. For example, the "8x57" IS 198 gr FMJ is 2425 FPS, (essentially the 1934+ military load), but the "8MM Mauser" 198 gr FMJ is only 2180 FPS. Naturally, they only sell the wimpy stuff in the US.
Wolf Gold is made by Privi and loaded to 8x57 IS specs, 196 gr SP @ 2461 fps, but I haven't seen it around in a while.
Remington's and Winchester's only offerings is 170 gr @ 2360fps. Federal's only option is even wimpier 170gr @ 2250 FPS.
These are barely over the velocity as the starting load in my Sierra and Hornady manuals for similar weight bullets.
Hornady and Nosler seem to be the only US folks making "real" 8x57 ammo, Hornady has two options, a 195 hunting bullet and a 196 gr match, both @ 2500 FPS, which is pretty close to the original military load.
Nosler has a 200gr AccuBond or Partition at 2475 fps, and a 180gr Ballistic tip at 2600 FPS, but they are really proud of them, at about $2.50 per round.
Seller & Belot and Norma both make a few 196 loads at ~2600 FPS, but availability is spotty, and while the price on the S&B is decent, the Norma stuff is up in the $2.50/round neighborhood.
Gregory Gauvin
New member
That's some great information. Thanks. Surplus 8mm is still around. I have seen a lot of Yugo surplus, but stay away from it because usually every other goes "click" and no bang.
The Turkish 154grn surplus load has been noted to be very consistent. And I would have to agree with this. As I acquired some groups with it I did not expect from old surplus. I measured 5 rounds, and there is very little difference in OAL. I'm talking +/- .002" at most. They sure put a HEAVY crimp on them. I pulled a round (took me 50 HARD wacks with bullet puller) and the bullet was spot on the money at 154grns. I haven't yet weighed the charged - not that it matters, but, for curiosity sake. I do not recognize the powder. It is some type of flake powder. Odd in color, and shaped differently than flake powders I am familiar with. The flakes are very square and larger then normal flake powders I've come across.
I will post pictures as soon as I get off this Mac that won't let me open my files. I have been having computer troubles...my desktop loaded up with 83 viruses when downloading TurboTax and I cannot clear it out. And Two days ago the motherboard on my laptop STB.
I roughly weighed the powder charge. I didn't feel like going to extra mile and digging out my safety scale, so I used my digital scale (which is accurate as I measured 230 grain .45 ACP bullets and they were spot on). Assuming the plastic drinking cups are of equal weight, the powder charge is 48 grains max. I would say 46-48 grains.
The Turkish 154grn surplus load has been noted to be very consistent. And I would have to agree with this. As I acquired some groups with it I did not expect from old surplus. I measured 5 rounds, and there is very little difference in OAL. I'm talking +/- .002" at most. They sure put a HEAVY crimp on them. I pulled a round (took me 50 HARD wacks with bullet puller) and the bullet was spot on the money at 154grns. I haven't yet weighed the charged - not that it matters, but, for curiosity sake. I do not recognize the powder. It is some type of flake powder. Odd in color, and shaped differently than flake powders I am familiar with. The flakes are very square and larger then normal flake powders I've come across.
I will post pictures as soon as I get off this Mac that won't let me open my files. I have been having computer troubles...my desktop loaded up with 83 viruses when downloading TurboTax and I cannot clear it out. And Two days ago the motherboard on my laptop STB.
I roughly weighed the powder charge. I didn't feel like going to extra mile and digging out my safety scale, so I used my digital scale (which is accurate as I measured 230 grain .45 ACP bullets and they were spot on). Assuming the plastic drinking cups are of equal weight, the powder charge is 48 grains max. I would say 46-48 grains.
Gregory Gauvin
New member
1953 M.K.E. Turkish Surplus 154grn Pulled
Powder:
Pulled Bullet: (Note how deformed the base of the bullet is from the heavy crimp)
Powder:
Pulled Bullet: (Note how deformed the base of the bullet is from the heavy crimp)
The 1950s surplus Yugo tends to have hard primers, this can be normally be worked around pretty easily by installing a heavier spring. They are about $8 and take about a minute to swap.
Another option, is recock and hit them again, never had one take more than 2 hits to go off, even with a ~80 year old original spring.
Gregory Gauvin
New member
Yes, I've always had a click-no bang go off with a second hit. I had some old 303 British with cordite that would go click...BANG. Hahaha, I kept them all in the black at 100 with a Jungle Carbine but sure having such a delay in the degradation of the propellant didn't help for accuracy's sake.
I have never used pistol powder to make light rifle loads. I find the recoil of my type 99 shooting 180 grainers around 2400 a pleasure to shoot. Once I burn up my surplus, maybe for a light load I can work an 8x57 to fire 175 grainers somewhere around there.
I have never used pistol powder to make light rifle loads. I find the recoil of my type 99 shooting 180 grainers around 2400 a pleasure to shoot. Once I burn up my surplus, maybe for a light load I can work an 8x57 to fire 175 grainers somewhere around there.
I never tried pistol powder, but have done quite a bit of loading using Hodgdon's 60% rule with H4895
Quite mild shooting, and still reasonably accurate. My 9 year old loves shooting my Enfield Jungle Carbine with those, using 123 gr Hornady bullets made for 7.62X39. He shoots it more than his .22.
Need to load some other things with it, so he can try some other rifles.