8X57 Mauser and Brown Bear
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ForneyRider
New member
Nosler reloading book shows loads for 8x57 200gr at higher velocity than 30.06 200gr load.
8x57 with 200gr Accubond is very accurate.
8mm Rem Mag is same case as 375H&H. It has several hundred fps over 8x57.
There are some 220gr bullets in .323, but I've read they are designed for 8mm Magnum velocities.
8x57 with 200gr Accubond is very accurate.
8mm Rem Mag is same case as 375H&H. It has several hundred fps over 8x57.
There are some 220gr bullets in .323, but I've read they are designed for 8mm Magnum velocities.
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[is it smart to take 8X57 Mauser on a Brown Bear hunt?]
I have "no comment", about "smart", but for myself - I would take more power on an unguided hunt.
For a guided hunt, one could take an 8x57, provided they come to terms with the probability that their guide will also be shooting the said brown bear at the same time with their .375 H&H, or better/larger, class/rifle.
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I have "no comment", about "smart", but for myself - I would take more power on an unguided hunt.
For a guided hunt, one could take an 8x57, provided they come to terms with the probability that their guide will also be shooting the said brown bear at the same time with their .375 H&H, or better/larger, class/rifle.
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Deaf Smith
New member
I remember Jack O'connor on hunting brown bear.
He said guides had newbie hunters come to camp with .375 H&H, .338 WMs, and the like and just could not hit the broad side of a barn with them. Just to much gun for the nimrods.
He said the guides felt if the hunters had just a 30-06, 200 gr GOOD bullets, and could hit their mark, they would have been much better armed.
And as a result, the 8x57, with heavy bullets and a shooter who can shoot well, will do fine. Keep in mind most places that have brown bear also require guides. And that guide, will have his 'stopper' cannon with him.
He said guides had newbie hunters come to camp with .375 H&H, .338 WMs, and the like and just could not hit the broad side of a barn with them. Just to much gun for the nimrods.
He said the guides felt if the hunters had just a 30-06, 200 gr GOOD bullets, and could hit their mark, they would have been much better armed.
And as a result, the 8x57, with heavy bullets and a shooter who can shoot well, will do fine. Keep in mind most places that have brown bear also require guides. And that guide, will have his 'stopper' cannon with him.
The difference between hunting and stopping
is tremendous.
Guides carry big bore rifles because when it goes bad, they have to stop nasty mean dangerous critters. Often at close range. Bigger bores, bigger bullets, up the odds for stopping things that want to harm you.
"Karamojo" Bell is often referred to due to his exploits at killing very large animals, especially elephants, with "small bore" rifles (small bore by African standards anyway). What is usually left out of the story is how Bell was able to place his shots with surgical precision, how he was a self taught expert in elephant anatomy, and how he was hunting the elefants, not stopping charging beasts with small calibers. If a 6.5mm or 7mm will kill an elephant, an 8mm will kill a brown bear. And for hunting, that is enough. But, if the same gun will be needed to stop an attack, having something larger available in the same vicinity, for back up, would be very prudent, I think.
is tremendous.
Guides carry big bore rifles because when it goes bad, they have to stop nasty mean dangerous critters. Often at close range. Bigger bores, bigger bullets, up the odds for stopping things that want to harm you.
"Karamojo" Bell is often referred to due to his exploits at killing very large animals, especially elephants, with "small bore" rifles (small bore by African standards anyway). What is usually left out of the story is how Bell was able to place his shots with surgical precision, how he was a self taught expert in elephant anatomy, and how he was hunting the elefants, not stopping charging beasts with small calibers. If a 6.5mm or 7mm will kill an elephant, an 8mm will kill a brown bear. And for hunting, that is enough. But, if the same gun will be needed to stop an attack, having something larger available in the same vicinity, for back up, would be very prudent, I think.
Unless things have changed in the last few years, in Alaska guides are required for hunting the great bears UNLESS you are a resident (and have been for more than a year).
I remember reading an article in some gun rag about a sitka blacktail deer hunt on an island. The author and his buddy both had small bore rifles and the author wrote that he had complete confidence in his 300 WSM to handle any danger from a bear. So I looked at the ballistic charts...
A full power 8x57 load will have over 3,000 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, in a heavier bullet than the 180 gr launched from a 300 WSM. Remember that momentum comes from mass, and heavier projectiles generally penetrate deeper. A 45-70 will have even less velocity, but a very massive projectile, and it is a fine choice for bear. Velocity doesn't kill, an accurately placed projectile that penetrates deep is what does the work.
Jimro
I remember reading an article in some gun rag about a sitka blacktail deer hunt on an island. The author and his buddy both had small bore rifles and the author wrote that he had complete confidence in his 300 WSM to handle any danger from a bear. So I looked at the ballistic charts...
A full power 8x57 load will have over 3,000 ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle, in a heavier bullet than the 180 gr launched from a 300 WSM. Remember that momentum comes from mass, and heavier projectiles generally penetrate deeper. A 45-70 will have even less velocity, but a very massive projectile, and it is a fine choice for bear. Velocity doesn't kill, an accurately placed projectile that penetrates deep is what does the work.
Jimro
Bullets are so damn good these days that you can about step down one bore size from what you would have used 25 years ago and get the same effectiveness. Nosler Partitions where the grandfather of these bullets so many years ago, but when the Barnes X was introduced it totally changed the game.
I would investigate 200gr TSX if you are really set on the 8mm
I would investigate 200gr TSX if you are really set on the 8mm
It's truly amazing how so many people dismiss the very germane issue that the quarry in this case can easily end your life. This isn't an elk that you're worried about having to track for a mile or two into the woods if it isn't put down straight away. This is an animal that can rip your throat from ear to ear with one swipe of its paw.
sc928porsche
New member
I would not feel any more uncomfortable hunting bear with an 8x57 than I would be with the 30-06.
Untill recently I used to hunt bear with a 300WM. Even then there was always that small nagging voice. I now use a 378WBY and the voice has gone.
Untill recently I used to hunt bear with a 300WM. Even then there was always that small nagging voice. I now use a 378WBY and the voice has gone.
I think most everybody is right.
The 8 mm is overlooked by many,but it is as serious as a 30-06 and can be used to get the job done.
But,I also consider,I have a .257 AI.If it was the only rifle I had,I would hunt elk with it.I'd use 120 gr Nosler partitions and be inside 200 yds.I would only ask that bullet to penetrate ribs to get to a heart lung shot.Nothing more.I'd pass up any shot that seemed risky.
I do not take the .257 because I have another rifle more suitable.
I do not know your circumstances,but if I were going brown/griz hunting or berry picking,I think I would like a .375. But I would also consider an 8x57 a rifle I could use,just as the .257 on elk.
I recall mentioning in one of the "Is my 9mm with 124 gr HP's a good bear defense?" threads that an old beater non collectible dark bore pitted exterior
Mauser 8x57 chopped to a barebones carry carbine would be much better than a handgun.
And,actually,up close,a .303 Brit,30-40 Krag,or your 8mm may perform better than a .300 WSM. Long,penetrating bullets at moderate velocity are dependable.
I'm not a bear hunter or great game expert.This is my line of thinking
Just remeber a brown bear with a perfectly placed heart shot is mortally wounded and he will die.It might take him 20 seconds to figure out he is dead,and he might bite your head in that time.
If,however,you bust him where the shoulders and spine come together with a big,dependable bullet,he is more immobilized while he is dying.
Breaking big bones is the reason for big guns.
The 8 mm is overlooked by many,but it is as serious as a 30-06 and can be used to get the job done.
But,I also consider,I have a .257 AI.If it was the only rifle I had,I would hunt elk with it.I'd use 120 gr Nosler partitions and be inside 200 yds.I would only ask that bullet to penetrate ribs to get to a heart lung shot.Nothing more.I'd pass up any shot that seemed risky.
I do not take the .257 because I have another rifle more suitable.
I do not know your circumstances,but if I were going brown/griz hunting or berry picking,I think I would like a .375. But I would also consider an 8x57 a rifle I could use,just as the .257 on elk.
I recall mentioning in one of the "Is my 9mm with 124 gr HP's a good bear defense?" threads that an old beater non collectible dark bore pitted exterior
Mauser 8x57 chopped to a barebones carry carbine would be much better than a handgun.
And,actually,up close,a .303 Brit,30-40 Krag,or your 8mm may perform better than a .300 WSM. Long,penetrating bullets at moderate velocity are dependable.
I'm not a bear hunter or great game expert.This is my line of thinking
Just remeber a brown bear with a perfectly placed heart shot is mortally wounded and he will die.It might take him 20 seconds to figure out he is dead,and he might bite your head in that time.
If,however,you bust him where the shoulders and spine come together with a big,dependable bullet,he is more immobilized while he is dying.
Breaking big bones is the reason for big guns.
I am the proud owner of a 8 x 57 Mauser, beautifully sporterized M98 that I inherited from my wife's grandfather. I have tinkered with handloaded 185 grain Remington CoreLokt's and get around 2650fps with no signs of pressure at all. I'm reasonably confident that with Nosler Partitions this rifle would pack a serious punch. All of that being said, I would not use this rifle on an Alaskan Brown Bear hunt. With costs upwards from 12,000 dollars for a non-resident to hunt these great animals I think that I would spring for a 375 H&H or 375 Ruger and learn to shoot it well before I booked that hunt of a lifetime! As others have said and I do agree, shot placement is critical and good quality bullets that will give good expansion and penetration rains supreme. Just my thoughts as a flatlander from the lower 48 who has never hunted Brown Bears!
Good point. Maybe you should ask this over at http://www.accuratereloading.com
Those guys have lots of experience hunting things that bite, mostly African.
"...that isn't always what happens in the field..." If you can't place the shot, on any game, for any reason, you have no business taking the shot.
"...Bullets are so damn good these days..." That means absolutely nothing if the bullet isn't placed correctly.
"...might take him 20 seconds..." That's a very long time if Yogi is within 100 yards. He can run at 35 MPH. Even a dead 1500 lb bear will be on you in less than 20 seconds.
The 8mm Mauser will do what a .30-06 will do(or a .303 British or .308 Win). A good, heavy for calibre, bullet, with lots of penetration and controlled expansion will do nicely, but you have to be able to place it accurately.
"...Bullets are so damn good these days..." That means absolutely nothing if the bullet isn't placed correctly.
"...might take him 20 seconds..." That's a very long time if Yogi is within 100 yards. He can run at 35 MPH. Even a dead 1500 lb bear will be on you in less than 20 seconds.
The 8mm Mauser will do what a .30-06 will do(or a .303 British or .308 Win). A good, heavy for calibre, bullet, with lots of penetration and controlled expansion will do nicely, but you have to be able to place it accurately.
Ignition Override
New member
I've never hunted and am a novice with guns, but having twice read the account of the guy who (out of the car to take a 'leak') stopped a charging grizzly with four .303 shots from his LE Jungle Carbine is always interesting.
I, have four Mausers one is 6.5X55 Swedish, and the other three are 8X57's M48, VZ-24, and K98. I, had never considered hunting dangerous game with my 8X57's. I, have checked with my handloading books and the hot loads show only Velocity of 2300 and Energy 2349 in the Sierra stats.
But with that said, I would feel confident using my 45-70 on brown bear so why not a 8X57 with a 250gr., Woodliegh Bullet.
But with that said, I would feel confident using my 45-70 on brown bear so why not a 8X57 with a 250gr., Woodliegh Bullet.
"...stopped a charging grizzly with four .303 shots from..." Depends on the size of the bear, the bullet and how far away Yogi was. Shot placement is everything too. The .303 is no slouch when it comes to power, but the bullet has to hit the right spot.
Makes you wonder how the guy got his unloaded, encased, rifle out of his vehicle fast enough. Having a loaded firearm in any vehicle is illegal everywhere. Certainly doesn't pay to pee on Yogi's berry patch.
There's a big difference between a Griz and a Brownie too. Same beast, but a Brownie is much bigger.
Makes you wonder how the guy got his unloaded, encased, rifle out of his vehicle fast enough. Having a loaded firearm in any vehicle is illegal everywhere. Certainly doesn't pay to pee on Yogi's berry patch.
There's a big difference between a Griz and a Brownie too. Same beast, but a Brownie is much bigger.
reynolds357
New member
I would not feel under gunned with a .325 WSM, but an 8x57 is marginal. One of my friends killed a monsterous Brown with an 8mm Rem mag. He said it dropped like a sack of potatoes. Unfortunately, hunting those bears is out of my budget. 
mapsjanhere
New member
Probably have to turn in my German card now, but why not go for the 325 WSM? There is a reason they developed the 8x68S - to get plenty enough power out of a 8 mm for stuff the 8x57 did't do well on. But that is a magnum size caliber while the 325 WSM fits in a cheap regular action.