89,000 Veterans "Legally" Disarmed

Bud Helms

Senior Member
June 21 Neal Knox Report - By a stroke of the bureaucratic pen, the Veterans Administration and BATF have disarmed more than 90,000 veterans who have at some point been administratively declared "mentally incompetent", either for hospitalization or
pension reasons.

Information that they are "mental incompetents" has been transmitted to the FBI for use in NICS firearms background checks.
Anyone on the list who attempts to purchase a gun will be denied, and is subject to criminal prosecution.

See Neal Knox Alerts for more.

Who said they don't have a plan!
 
"Anyone on the list who attempts to purchase a gun will be denied, and is subject to criminal prosecution."

And the first the vet is likely to know about it is when he/she is busted for attempting to buy. Freekin wonderful


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Sam I am, grn egs n packin

Nikita Khrushchev predicted confidently in a speech in Bucharest, Rumania on June 19, 1962 that: " The United States will eventually fly the Communist Red Flag...the American people will hoist it themselves."
 
Does this mean that a person who has "shell shock"/"Post tramatic stress syndrome" and is taken from the field to recover, can be denied RKBA? :mad:
 
That is about right, Izzy.Little by little and slice by slice ,Komrade Klintonov and Komrade Gore-ov are slicing up the Bill of Rights and the Second Ammendment.

But ,in Nov, we will slice up ,chew up and spit out Gore back to the private sector ,where he belongs, before he can do yet more harm to America.
 
This is the reason that I am opposed to project exile, and the "just enforce the laws we already have" argument. There are already enough laws on the books to disarm half of us, and congress proved in '97 that they have no qualms with passing a retro-active law that would deny your rights for a misdemeanor charge you got 20 years ago. Have you noticed that the list of what makes you a felon is growing longer and longer? My idea of a felony is: 1. You have caused someone serious bodily injury or death, 2. You have caused very major property damage intentionally, 3. You have denied someone their civil rights through force or intimidation. All other crimes should be misdemeanors. Mere possession of any substance or item does not do any of the above 3. I also don't like intent laws because they give the right to the state to purport to know what you are thinking. Laws like assault w/ intent to kill, possession with intent to distribute, enhanced penalties if the law deems you hurt someone for reasons other than love (hate crimes), and other "thought crimes". In Costa Rica and other forward thinking countries, there is no recognized intent laws. Either you did or you did not commit a crime.
I feel for those veterans, and think that this too would be a great case for the post-Bush Supreme Court to hear. I think G.W. will owe Dr. Timothy Emerson a great deal of gratitude as most gun owners want a Bush supreme court to hear his case. I'd really like to hear the words: Chief Justice Clarence Thomas!
What's new though? Veterans, especially Viet-Nam vets have been getting screwed for 30+ years now. This action I would guess will affect them the most. PTSD wasn't recognized before the VN conflict, and no wars since have been long or bad enough to cause a lot of PTSD. I will once again contact the Texas delagation to the House and Senate, and see what I can turn up. Clinton has a vendetta against the military, but he has a special hate for those who did their duty while he was in England and Russia, smoking pot, and getting laid (or is it raping).
 
kjm stated;
|There are already enough laws on the books |to disarm half of us,

Don't kid yourself, there are enough laws
on the books to disarms all of us.

Project Exile, "Enforce the (read "unconstitutional") laws we already have" are
weak attempts to appease the tiger who is eating your neighbors in vain hopes of being
left until last.

It is conceivable that there are gun laws that are *not* unconstitutional, but I have never heard of one. All guns laws are hostile to the constitution and must be repealed.

I keep hearing folks, on *both* sides talking about so-called "common sense" gun control measures, but I have not yet heard a common sense proposal.

As so many folks have already said, it is not about guns, it is about control.

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Blessed be the Lord my strength, which teacheth my hands to war, my fingers to fight.

Psalm of David 144:1

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Oh great! I wonder if I'll still pass the NICS check. Argh, I'm so pissed now. After I get confirmation of this, my reps and senators are getting an earful.

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Son
1911 Addiction
"No man is so poor as to have nothing worth giving."
 
The problem with actions like this is that it is LAW made by the stroke of a political appointee's pen and not by congress.

"Leglislation without representation is tyranny"

Sound familiar?

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Better days to be,

Ed
 
Silly question (considering who is in the White House) but aren't there _laws_ limiting the release of _medical_ information? One would think FBI files of such info would be limited to people who have committed crimes.

On more reason to not be treated at the VA hospital.

Tom
 
Tom, there are also laws preventing Clinton from accessing FBI dossiers, and laws preventing ATF from acquiring 4473s without warrants. Doesn't mean jackdammit.

"I keep forgetting, rules are only for little nice people." --Calvin (the kid, not the philosopher) after getting punched out by Moe
 
As per Ed's Brunners post, I can remember somthing that happened during the early part of the first 4 yrs of the Klinton occupation.

The Philanderer-In-Chief had just signed another one of his illegal, facist
"executive order's". After the ceremony one of his sycophants was interviewed by a reporter.
The little Tukkus-Lekker said:

"Stroke of a Pen, Law of the land. Pretty cool, huh?" :eek: :eek:

Thats all you need to know, to see the truth about where our government has gone. The Constitution is no better than toilet paper to Klinton and his ilk.

Just let me know where to report, rifle in hand, once the SHTF. :mad:

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"TANSTAAFL"- R.A. Heinlen

"Molon Labe"- Leonidas to Xerxes at Thermopile.

[This message has been edited by Mordwyn.45 (edited June 22, 2000).]
 
I thought NICs was to stop criminals

now it stops "incompetents"

how long till NICS flags activists?

dZ
 
Finally someone else is putting this out and it's a "name" in the firearms rights biz. Great. Hey folks guess what under the Law once in a prohibited catagoery yo can't ever legally purchase a weapon, even if cured. Below is FAST 00-44, the letter that out lines the way this ios being done it is from the VBA(Veterans Benefits Administraition) some benefit huh?
http://www.vba-arms.nctsw.navy.mil/060700.html go here, then go to the 3rd letter listed , FAST 00-44 National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) Process and click on the numbers 00-44. this should take you to the letter.

http://www.vba-arms.nctsw.navy.mil this is the parent web site that the page with the letter is located on. The page with the letter is called the WARMS Update 06/07/2000.


June 2, 2000 In Reply Refer To: 212

Fast Letter 00-44

Director (00/21)

All VBA Regional Offices and Centers

SUBJ: National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS) Process

Background:

The Brady Handgun Violence Protection Act (Brady Act) of 1993 established the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). When drafting the regulations for NICS, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (ATF) defined the seven categories of individuals prohibited from purchasing or redeeming firearms. ATF incorporated the VA definition of incompetent "because of injury or disease lack the mental capacity to contract or manage their own affairs" into the category of those adjudicated as a mental defective. The Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA), through a Memorandum of Understanding with the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), is providing the FBI with information on veterans rated as incompetent, incompetent surviving spouses, adult helpless children and dependent parents. Licensed gun dealers are required to check the NICS system to see if an individual is in a prohibited category before transferring a firearm to that individual.

What VBA has Done:

In November 1999, VBA provided NICS with an initial load of data on incompetent veterans, surviving spouses, adult helpless children and dependent parents from information in the Benefits Delivery Network (BDN) and the Fiduciary Beneficiary System (FBS). This consisted of data on 88,898 beneficiaries which were loaded into the NICS index.

Rights of Denied Firearms Purchasers:

If a veteran or beneficiary is denied the right to purchase or redeem a firearm, he or she may request the reason for the denial from the agency that conducted the check of the NICS data. If that individual wishes to challenge the accuracy of the record upon which the denial was based or if he or she wishes to assert that his or her rights to possess a firearm have been restored, he or she must appeal to the denying agency, i.e. the FBI or state or local law enforcement agency. If the denying agency is unable to resolve the appeal, the denying agency will inform the individual of the reason for the denial, as well as the name and address of the agency that provided the information upon which the denial was based. If the denial was based on a VA rating or court order of incompetency and the individual denied writes to the VA Central Office VBA Contact Point requesting a correction of the record, the request will be forwarded to the regional office with jurisdiction over the claims file.

If the denial of the purchase or redemption of a firearm was because the individual was rated as incompetent by VA or because of a court order, under the Privacy Act, 5 U.S.C. 552a, he or she has the right to request a correction or amendment of his or her records if the incompetency finding is found not to have been correct. If the regional office determines that the incompetency determination was correct and the records cannot be amended, the claimant must be informed by the regional office that he or she has the right to appeal the decision not to amend the records by writing to the General Counsel, Department of Veterans Affairs, 810 Vermont Avenue, N.W., Washington, DC 20420. If the beneficiary has not been rated or determined to be incompetent, he or she should be so informed. Also, the appropriate centralized VBA NICS contact point (See paragraph 9 below) should be informed of that information by telephone or e-mail so that the information may be passed on to the FBI NICS office.

How Data Quality is Determined:

For quality assurance purposes, NICS is requesting a quarterly review of a sampling of approximately 100 cases to confirm the determination of incompetency, as well as the beneficiaries’ Social Security number and date of birth. From the initial load of data, they requested a review of 107 cases. This review was completed by employees at 44 regional offices and the incompetency finding was found to be appropriate in all cases. However, a number of cases were found in which the veterans’ or beneficiaries’ names were incorrectly spelled or required a full first name, middle initial, or suffix, such as Jr. A number of other cases required the provision or correction of the beneficiaries’ Social Security number or date of birth. The next review is due in June 2000. A special review by FBI personnel of 200 claims folders will also occur this year in Washington.

What You Need to Know for this Program:

Under the law, we are to routinely provide updated information on "new" incompetents. If an individual previously rated incompetent has their competency restored, under the law they are still permanently restricted from purchasing or redeeming a firearm and information concerning that individual will not be stricken from the NICS index. We are now developing procedures for providing NICS with data on veterans and beneficiaries that have been determined to be incompetent since November 1999 and for periodic future updates.

Non-Retention of Records Related to NICS Background Checks:

The NICS law prohibits the retention of records as to inquiries on potential firearms purchasers. Do not retain any information related to a NICS background check for reference or backup purposes. Do not create a memorandum for file or contact report. Information that may not be maintained and must be destroyed includes but is not limited to: all inquiry and response messages relating to the initiation and result of a NICS background check, all records relating to the individual or the transfer created as a result of a NICS background check, notes, system records, hard drives, disks, letters, personal logs, etc.

Questions:

Questions should be directed to the contact listed on the appropriate Calendar page at:
http://vbaw.vba.va.gov/bl/21/calendar/index.htm

Rescission:

This letter is rescinded effective June 1, 2001.
 
"Stroke of the pen, law of the land.. . . Kinda cool huh?"

I can not wait for the next media type to tell me character does not matter. Character does matter, it did matter, and it will matter. What does it say for our national character that we elected Clinton TWICE? We should not be surprised that the NCIC and other databases are linked. Get use to it. More will be done. The clock is running out on the clinton administration and they will do every thing possible to affect as much of their agenda as possible. It will be up to the next president (most likely Bush) to reverse the initiative. . . . trouble is he will have to use the bureaucrats installed by Clinton.

IT is just starting! Get use to it!

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Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.

Barry Goldwater--1964
 
Why does Clinton have such a hard-on against vets?

Is it because he's a coward and a traitor?

Is it because he knows that he could never have the stones to pick up a rifle and go to war for the freedom of his country?

Or is it just because he's the most thoroughly evil, reprehensible creature to ever infest the White House?

212 days to go... what's next? :(
 
Why just Veterans? By the same logic we should require all doctors and hospitals to turn over the mental health records of all citizens. Maybe then more folks would realize how terribly wrong this is.

Funny how the first President in modern history to keep his medical records private wants to mess with ours. If Bill and Hillary want the FBI to have medical records they can start by giving their own records first.

Tom
 
Funny isn't it. You spend your time, you put your life on the line, to protect against enemies, to fight to keep Rights from being taken away and then you have your's pulled because you're a Vet and deemed incompetent. And it's not a court ordered incompetency, it's an administrative defined incompetency. One can be proved while the other is some opinion of some desk jockey. I wouldn't doubt that I'm on that list. Not because I am incompetent, but because I've shown a great dislike of most people I've had the misfortune of being around. I didn't "bow" down to those whom I thought were given double standards and I refused to be a brown nosed idiot in the presense of high ranking idiots. Pretty soon, they will add new disqualifing statements... such as: Can't spell when really ticked off, or Bad credit report so that makes him/her incompetent to handle ones money and so can't be trusted to handle a firearm. I can just see it now: Form 4473, question 14: Are you a Vet? If you answer Yes then you can't buy or have a firearm, if you anwser No then you're a law abiding person who can be trusted with a firearm. Geez, what crap. USP45usp
 
You have to remember the liberal mentality: anyone who would willing sign up for the military must be insane to begin with. To volunteer to be disciplined, to be ordered around by intellectual inferiors, to potentially place one's life in jeopardy to protect another? Clear signs of mental incompetence.

I hate liberals. I really do. As long as liberals exist, we'll have the need for assault weapons.
 
Luckily, in the Clinton Administration, prosecution is VERY unlikely for any violation of the Brady law, et al.

For a man who's tough on crime, you certainly wouldn't know it.

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Beware the man with the S&W .357 Mag.
Chances are he knows how to use it.
 
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