Magnum Mike
New member
I don't know how you figure that! They have had it that way for years and it still has not worked. Why should I pay to give my brother or my kid a gun??
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80-90% in favor of expanded background checks
- Thread starter mayosligo
- Start date
Do you know why background checks are not currently effective?
Because one is not needed to buy a gun out of the newspaper or in the parking lot of a gunshow. No backgrond check required.
I know a few people who have a healthy appetite for buying guns they can not afford to keep.
Every 6 months they are selling a gun that they couldn't live without in the newspaper or walking round like an jerk muzzel flashing everyone at the gunshow with a sign on their back...."For sale".
And of course they just need beer money and could really careless who buys the gun if they pay the price they want.
I know several people who would never go through the trouble of filling out a background check form because they know they wouldn't pass.
Would background checks prevent all gun crime? No it wouldn't
Would background checks have prevented any mass shootings? Sure wouldn't have and thats not my point here.
Should the federal and state goverments enforce the current laws? For sure they should
Should criminals be let out of prison early or at all convicted of violent offenses with guns? NO way.
Because one is not needed to buy a gun out of the newspaper or in the parking lot of a gunshow. No backgrond check required.
I know a few people who have a healthy appetite for buying guns they can not afford to keep.
Every 6 months they are selling a gun that they couldn't live without in the newspaper or walking round like an jerk muzzel flashing everyone at the gunshow with a sign on their back...."For sale".
And of course they just need beer money and could really careless who buys the gun if they pay the price they want.
I know several people who would never go through the trouble of filling out a background check form because they know they wouldn't pass.
Would background checks prevent all gun crime? No it wouldn't
Would background checks have prevented any mass shootings? Sure wouldn't have and thats not my point here.
Should the federal and state goverments enforce the current laws? For sure they should
Should criminals be let out of prison early or at all convicted of violent offenses with guns? NO way.
On the very top 1/10,000th of an inch of the surface, . . . background checks "seem" OK.
But like already stated several times: the devil is in the details.
I am MUCH more in favor of posting signs, . . . ads, . . . banners, . . . whatever it takes to get out the message: IF you are a felon and IF you have a gun, you go to jail, . . . 10 years, . . . no parole, . . . no plea bargain, . . . don't pass GO, . . . don't collect $200.
If our country can send billions to the third world countries, . . . why not just fence off 40 acres in every state, . . . make it another federal prison, . . . put some honest LEGAL citizens to work, . . . take the felons off the street, . . . put em in pink, . . . put em in jail, . . . and leave them there. Period !
Get enough of them in there, . . . the community (possible exception being Wash DC and Chicago) will begin to get cleaned up.
I would even go so far as to make it mandatory that all FFL's take a color picture with attached name board, . . . just like a mug shot, . . . before they process the application. Anyone failing the application, . . . automatically has to be turned over to the local sheriff for prosecution, . . . all successful prosecutions land a $500 bounty to the FFL who turned them in.
May God bless,
Dwight
But like already stated several times: the devil is in the details.
I am MUCH more in favor of posting signs, . . . ads, . . . banners, . . . whatever it takes to get out the message: IF you are a felon and IF you have a gun, you go to jail, . . . 10 years, . . . no parole, . . . no plea bargain, . . . don't pass GO, . . . don't collect $200.
If our country can send billions to the third world countries, . . . why not just fence off 40 acres in every state, . . . make it another federal prison, . . . put some honest LEGAL citizens to work, . . . take the felons off the street, . . . put em in pink, . . . put em in jail, . . . and leave them there. Period !
Get enough of them in there, . . . the community (possible exception being Wash DC and Chicago) will begin to get cleaned up.
I would even go so far as to make it mandatory that all FFL's take a color picture with attached name board, . . . just like a mug shot, . . . before they process the application. Anyone failing the application, . . . automatically has to be turned over to the local sheriff for prosecution, . . . all successful prosecutions land a $500 bounty to the FFL who turned them in.
May God bless,
Dwight
The poll, if I recall, was done by Pew Research, which interviewed a very small sample of people living in just a handful of northeastern states ... the reason Obama and his ilk can truck the results out, treat them like they really reflect the feelings of 90 percent of Americans and then whip us for not honoring the feelings of 90 percent of our fellow citizens can only be explained if you realize that very few people will bother to research the source of the figure ... if the president or DiFi or Schumer or Biden say it, it must be true. people simply refuse to think for themselves, which is why we're in this mess to begin with ...
recently sold a handgun FTF through the sale column here; we exchanged our carry licenses, which was good enough for me ...
recently sold a handgun FTF through the sale column here; we exchanged our carry licenses, which was good enough for me ...
At my club/range membership requires a gun safety course (NRA approved). We lock ourselves in/out of the premises, we have hot/cold periods, we stand behind a line behind benches during cold periods, we are oriented to the club rules that are all pointed at safety. We have many more rules that are all oriented toward safety. This is GOOD and why I am a member of my particular club/range.
Our country has flawed background check rules in effect as I type. When I purchase a firearm it generally goes thru my FFL (black powder No-- this is fine). Now, what is the problem with improving our flawed background check system? What is the problem with expanding it beyond me to all felons, terrorists, nut cases, straw purchasers etc. ?? Of course, many people who should not have guns will continue to get them, but with an improved system fewer of the wrong folks will obtain firearms. Certain family pass down exceptions strike me as no problem within a new, improved "safety" background check system. I'm NRA, and I support improvements in a system to check out more gun purchasers.
.02
David
Our country has flawed background check rules in effect as I type. When I purchase a firearm it generally goes thru my FFL (black powder No-- this is fine). Now, what is the problem with improving our flawed background check system? What is the problem with expanding it beyond me to all felons, terrorists, nut cases, straw purchasers etc. ?? Of course, many people who should not have guns will continue to get them, but with an improved system fewer of the wrong folks will obtain firearms. Certain family pass down exceptions strike me as no problem within a new, improved "safety" background check system. I'm NRA, and I support improvements in a system to check out more gun purchasers.
.02
David
David. What would those improvements look like? I think this may be why the numbers are so high. People say they are in favor of expanded background checks to somehow stop criminals or crazy people from getting guns but know one can come up with what that looks like. So the end result is make it harder for law abiding people to get guns or make it so they have to register and report their guns and ammo every year to the local sheriff. We do ourselves a disservice as citizens when we take the "good intentions" approach without actually knowing what that is. Anyone who commits a crime with a gun has knowingly gone into that action knowing they were committing a crime. In almost all cases they have commuted several crimes before then.
It is great that your club is so focused on safety but I bet you have members who have broken those rules. Do you punish the members who did not break those laws as a result? I hope note. You would be best served to throw rule breakers out.
It is great that your club is so focused on safety but I bet you have members who have broken those rules. Do you punish the members who did not break those laws as a result? I hope note. You would be best served to throw rule breakers out.
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flintlock.50
New member
Personally, I would feel a bit uncomfortable selling a gun to a complete stranger. The guns I have sold have either been to people I knew or had a connection to, or I have sold them through a dealer on consignment.
While the poll is obviously cherry-picked, what '90% of the people' want is irrelevant.
If 90% of the people wanted to reinstate slavery, remove women's right to vote or require you to attend a certain church, how would that set with you? We are talking about an inalienable right here.
There was also a time in this country when 'presumption of innocence' actually meant something. That era ended, when we began presuming that everyone who wanted a gun must be some kind of criminal.
If 90% of the people wanted to reinstate slavery, remove women's right to vote or require you to attend a certain church, how would that set with you? We are talking about an inalienable right here.
There was also a time in this country when 'presumption of innocence' actually meant something. That era ended, when we began presuming that everyone who wanted a gun must be some kind of criminal.
mayosligo-- Improvements, let's take one example. Strawmen purchasers at gun shows. Today, you or me can go to our gun show --- buy 50 pistols without background check, throw them in our auto trunks and head for some local community where folks will let us double our money in an hour. Those guns can be purchased by felons, nut jobs, terrorists etc (folks who should not have them). You or me might stop for gas on the way home, and yep our business deal from the week before pays off-- we get our head blown off by a gun we sold the week before to a punk who was holding up the station as we pumped our gas. Could happen. Strawman purchasing sales ought to be a felony.
We need new law to improve this situation among others.
.02
David
We need new law to improve this situation among others.
.02
David
mayosligo-- Improvements, let's take one example. Strawmen purchasers at gun shows. Today, you or me can go to our gun show --- buy 50 pistols without background check, throw them in our auto trunks and head for some local community where folks will let us double our money in an hour. Those guns can be purchased by felons, nut jobs, terrorists etc (folks who should not have them). You or me might stop for gas on the way home, and yep our business deal from the week before pays off-- we get our head blown off by a gun we sold the week before to a punk who was holding up the station as we pumped our gas. Could happen. Strawman purchasing sales ought to be a felony.
We need new law to improve this situation among others.
.02
David
Agreed.. Hence, why I support my local FFL Dealer and any gun I plan on selling has an ATF Form 4473 attached to it along with a buyer. If they dont pass the background check, they dont get the gun and im moving on to the next.
The problem is thats my choice and its not mandatory.. part of the reason bad guys have guns. But that being said, theyre gonna get them regardless no matter how hard or easy the law makes it because they play outside the law and have the $$$ to make it happen among other things. So, in retrospect, I dont support it because it wont solve anything but just open the door to make it worse on us.
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We didn't have any background checks at least before 1968, but I think even later. We sure as heck did not have more crime due to lack of background checks. Criminals even before the NFA 1934 favor stealing guns or buying them cheaper from other criminals rather than paying retail price.
Background checks are just feel good laws for the ignorant. They have no effect on stopping violent crime, while burdening the law abiding and possibly preventing a victim from protecting himself. And it costs a pretty penny to administer as well.
If a person such as would fail a background check is too dangerous to trust with a firearm then they should not be loose in public with access to knives, vehicles, bats, etc.
Background checks are just feel good laws for the ignorant. They have no effect on stopping violent crime, while burdening the law abiding and possibly preventing a victim from protecting himself. And it costs a pretty penny to administer as well.
If a person such as would fail a background check is too dangerous to trust with a firearm then they should not be loose in public with access to knives, vehicles, bats, etc.
Aside from poor muzzle discipline, I don't see a problem there. Statistically, criminals don't get their guns from gun shows. If it's not a problem, why are we rushing to impose regulation?
If they're buying guns on the sly, you could do everyone a big favor by reporting that.
Actually, that would qualify as dealing without a license, which is already a crime. So is selling a gun to someone one knows to be disqualified.
Straw purchases? Also a felony already. They're just not being prosecuted. If someone wants more enforcement and prosecution of existing laws, I'm all for it. It's the push for new laws that rankles me.
I will respond to the quotes taken from my posts.
Where are the statistics on guns acquired from gun shows and from the newspaper classifieds and on laundry mat pin-up boards?
I'll answer that...there are none because there is no way to know where the guns came from because alot of times they are thrown out a car window after the crime and no criminal is sticking around to take a survey for the cops.
In my area of the country guns are for sale everywhere and no backgrounds checks are made on these sales. Alot of trades being made also...no money involved.
The people I know who cant buy guns have accepted the fact that they can not legally own a gun.
Background checks only on new purchases from a gunshop/FFL is not 100% effective but it helps.
Background checks on individual sales aka transfers would not be 100% effective.
But its better than nothing and it will close a loophole that the criminals for sure use.
It would mostly hold responsible the seller to do a background check before he sells the gun becuse I understand the criminals dont really care.
It would help make sure the only way a criminal could get a gun would be to steal it or have another person buy it for them(straw purchase)
Notice I said "help" nothing is 100%
The courts must start locking people up that commit crimes with guns nd keep them locked up.
The 2nd ammendment will not be infringed upon based on the laws I want and would support.
No more waiting periods to buy and take home guns.
Where are the statistics on guns acquired from gun shows and from the newspaper classifieds and on laundry mat pin-up boards?
I'll answer that...there are none because there is no way to know where the guns came from because alot of times they are thrown out a car window after the crime and no criminal is sticking around to take a survey for the cops.
In my area of the country guns are for sale everywhere and no backgrounds checks are made on these sales. Alot of trades being made also...no money involved.
The people I know who cant buy guns have accepted the fact that they can not legally own a gun.
Background checks only on new purchases from a gunshop/FFL is not 100% effective but it helps.
Background checks on individual sales aka transfers would not be 100% effective.
But its better than nothing and it will close a loophole that the criminals for sure use.
It would mostly hold responsible the seller to do a background check before he sells the gun becuse I understand the criminals dont really care.
It would help make sure the only way a criminal could get a gun would be to steal it or have another person buy it for them(straw purchase)
Notice I said "help" nothing is 100%
The courts must start locking people up that commit crimes with guns nd keep them locked up.
The 2nd ammendment will not be infringed upon based on the laws I want and would support.
No more waiting periods to buy and take home guns.
Plumbnut said:
And you would be wrong.
The U.S. Justice Department's Bureau of Justice Statistics conducted "personal interviews with large nationally representative samples of State and Federal prison inmates" to produce a report on Firearm Use by Offenders. The Highlights on page #1 of the report include the sources for inmates possessing guns.
Reported sources of guns included:
39.6% Street/illegal source
39.2% Friends or family
08.3% Retail store
03.8% Pawnshop
01.0% Flea market
00.7% Gun show
39.2% Friends or family
08.3% Retail store
03.8% Pawnshop
01.0% Flea market
00.7% Gun show
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Well no one believes a criminal......and some dont trust the government.
I guess you guys are right.....lets not have any background checks and let everyone buy full auto machine guns.....F16's who can afford them and stinger missiles. lets put Ar-15 on the toy isle at walmart and oput ammo in the gumball machines out front. LOL
I kid you of course.
Ultimately something will be done. I assure everyone of that. I'm just saying that a simple background check when a gun is sold isn't a big deal to me personally.
I'm not for adding any hidden junk in a law either and will be the first to oppose any bill that trys to sneak stuff in.
Taken from your source. Look at how many got the gun from friends or family.
40% from friends and family. No background check required source.
....................................................................................................
Among prisoners who carried a firearm
during the offense for which they were
serving time in 1997, 14% had bought
or traded for the gun from a store,
pawnshop, flea market, or gun show.
The 1997 percentage who had
acquired their firearm at a retail outlet
represented a significant drop from
21% in 1991. The percentage of
inmates receiving their gun from family
or friends rose from 34% in 1991 to
40% in 1997.
I guess you guys are right.....lets not have any background checks and let everyone buy full auto machine guns.....F16's who can afford them and stinger missiles. lets put Ar-15 on the toy isle at walmart and oput ammo in the gumball machines out front. LOL
I kid you of course.
Ultimately something will be done. I assure everyone of that. I'm just saying that a simple background check when a gun is sold isn't a big deal to me personally.
I'm not for adding any hidden junk in a law either and will be the first to oppose any bill that trys to sneak stuff in.
Taken from your source. Look at how many got the gun from friends or family.
40% from friends and family. No background check required source.
....................................................................................................
Among prisoners who carried a firearm
during the offense for which they were
serving time in 1997, 14% had bought
or traded for the gun from a store,
pawnshop, flea market, or gun show.
The 1997 percentage who had
acquired their firearm at a retail outlet
represented a significant drop from
21% in 1991. The percentage of
inmates receiving their gun from family
or friends rose from 34% in 1991 to
40% in 1997.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
While I don't disagree that selling through an FFL is a good way to avoid possible complications, the fact remains that under current Federal law the requirement is nothing more than that you cannot sell to someone whom you know is or believe to be a prohibited person. If the person shows you a well-faked carry permit or FOID, so be it. You have met the legal requirement by satisfying yourself the buyer is not prohibited. The law does not require you to be an expert in spotting faked identification documents.Flea21 said:
If you wish to go beyond that, I won't tell you you're wrong. Just don't conflate your personal preference with what the law requires.
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Just because you buy a gun from friends or family doesn't mean it was a straw purchase.
If my cousin decides he doesn't want the gun he bought last year because he's a dumb butt an doesn't know how to manage his money and crys to me his cars broke down and he needs 300.00 for his sig he couldn't live without........thats not a straw purchase.
What I believe to be a straw purchase is buying a gun with the sole intent of transfering it to a person right away or in the near future (time frame IDK) or to avoid a background check.
Immediate family can buy a gun as a gift if the person receiving can legally have the firearm.
I'm no lawyer and I dont know every detail of the law. Maybe a lawyer could chime in.
If my cousin decides he doesn't want the gun he bought last year because he's a dumb butt an doesn't know how to manage his money and crys to me his cars broke down and he needs 300.00 for his sig he couldn't live without........thats not a straw purchase.
What I believe to be a straw purchase is buying a gun with the sole intent of transfering it to a person right away or in the near future (time frame IDK) or to avoid a background check.
Immediate family can buy a gun as a gift if the person receiving can legally have the firearm.
I'm no lawyer and I dont know every detail of the law. Maybe a lawyer could chime in.
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Aguila Blanca
Staff
There is no "immediate family" requirement whatsoever. If I decide I want to thank my friend for helping me build my street rod, I can buy a gun and give it to him, as long as he isn't a prohibited person. He doesn't have to be immediate family.Plumbnut said:
Plumbnut said:
Gun control advocates frequently pose an all-or-nothing choice, which is simply not true.
Read some of the threads posted here on TFL during the past couple of months discussing background checks and you will see that options abound.
Even easier, read S.649, the Democratic gun control bill which focuses on recordkeeping, and contrast it to Senator Coburn's proposal for broad background checks without recordkeeping.