700 BDL Hates 180's - Help?

The 30-06 cartridge is legitimately loaded to (at least) two standards.

One is about the M-1 Garand rifle. Powder with a burn rate and pressure curve similar to 4895 is needed to work with (not damage) the Garand gas system.

Certainly,fine,accurate 30-06 ammo can be made with powders such as 4895.

And this performance level is quite suitable for hunting.

There are a lot of folks who make a reasonable choice to use the 4895 type loads that served the military and the Garand just fine for over approximately 100 years. It works.It works for hunting with a bolt gun just fine.

But in a bolt action rifle that will not be harmed by higher gas pressure at the muzzle, higher velocity along with excellent accuracy can be achieved with a powder of slower 4350 burn rate. Safely.

Neither one is wrong. Take good care of a Garand by feeding it proper ammo.

Other than that,use what you prefer.
 
I believe that H4895 was originally Mil surplus powder, it and H 4831. That's what Hodgdon got it's start in the powder business with. I haven't loaded for 30-06 all that much but the one I have likes IMR 4064 and a 180gr Hornady SP. Not sure why as I think the stuff is a bit to fast for the 30-06 but what works, works. I'd also suggest trying one of the 4350's H or IMR. That stuff just seem's to work in whatever it's used in.

My 30-06 shoot's just over 1" group's with that 180 gr bullet, more than good enough for hunting load. In hunting loads I always try to find the most accurate load but will sacrifice a bit of accuracy for velocity. I cannot see loading down to some other cartridge level for a hunting load, just get the lesser cartridge.

Some rifle's simply don't like certain bullet weight's or styles. Try different styles and weight's. I'd say take a good look at bedding but if the bedding was bad, I doubt the 150's would shoot so well! Yet there might be something there so you might check bedding.

In the end though, first thing I'd try is slower powder like H or IMR 4350. Not sure what powder's are around anymore, I tend to use older powder's more than newer. A powder I've had good luck with in everything I've used it in is H414. Lot of people say it's the same as W760 but I find different load date for it and have never tried swapping it. W760 was/is Winchester's slow burning powder, is it still around? Something I look for loading is a powder that fill's to about 90% case capacity or there about judging by eye. But I avoid compressed load all the time. Generally a powder to fast won't fill the case very well and to slow will cause compressed loads. That said, my load of 4064 doesn't really fill the case that well! But it does work. Success is where you find it, never argue with it.
 
BushmanTahou,

I keep thinking about how big your groups are and agree it is hard to explain by barrel deflection. I am thinking perhaps the one important difference from your 150-grain loads is simply the greater level of recoil. Several things can happen when recoil increases from causing the scope to shift, if it isn't quite in top shape, or causing the mounts to slip or causing bedding to slip or pulling the receiver away from the stock or pushing uneven bolt lugs toward contact. It may be worth pulling the gun from the stock and looking for rub marks from stock contact. You can mark the bolt lug rear surfaces with a Magic Marker or match smoke and close and open the bolt to see if it scrapes off evenly from both.

At the range, you can try resting the underside of the magazine well on your bags instead of the fore end of the stock, as that tends to reduce contact and stock flapping.

The paper suggestion made by HiBC is worth a try. Another approach is to take narrow strips of cardboard off a tablet (paper match sticks work), bag the gun with the front bag under the magazine well and hang about 10-20 lbs (two full gallon jugs of water works) off the sling-swivel to flex the stock down, and jam the cardboard between the stock and barrel on opposite sides, and then release the weights. That causes compression. Shoot a few rounds and put the weight back on and move the cardboard a quarter inch and try again. Start at the front and keep moving back until the barrel is tuned. Once you find that spot you can coat the barrel over that location with Johnson's Paste Wax and saturate the cardboard with epoxy and put the two back together. This is sometimes called O'Conner bedding. It can tune rifles nicely.

There is also an adjustable barrel tuning support you can get called a Smart Stock you can have put on the rifle.

You can also take the rifle to a gunsmith to go over all the previously mentioned things for you, bed the receiver properly, if it isn't bedded now, blueprint the receiver or lap your bolt lugs if either of those operations are needed.
 
Sticking with the 150 would work just fine.

Purely strange is the reaction with 180.

Not sure best left alone, tweaks might have both shooting badly then you really have to find out whats going on.
 
Thanks everyone for the tremendous response! Yeah, I find myself doubting the thing is really as bad as I remember...I'll probably work up a few loads with 180gr partitions and 168gr ttsx bullets (think I'd feel comfortable with a lighter bullet in solid copper for the big stuff) over a few different powders and see how I make out. Not chasing any big game this season, so I'll be content with the 150 partitions. I'm a two rifle guy at the moment as far as hunting is concerned. The next step will be cooking up a tsx round I can make shoot in my mini-14 for Coyotes! But half the fun of reloading is finding what doesn't work. Gives you more excuse for range time!
 
What I like about the O'Connor bedding is you use the cardboard dry until you find the sweet spot. That leaves you able to test 150's, 165's and whatever before you commit with epoxy.

One other thing comes to mind. The Remingtons I have are old. I haven't had occasion to tear down a new one is quite some time. I am assuming they still put the "Remington bump" contact points or some form of contact point near the front of their stocks? These intentional barrel channel contact points are intended to improve the precision of the rifle and were considered one of the secrets to Remington accuracy at one time. You can find them by sliding a dollar bill inside the barrel channel until it stops. If they are there, then I'm going to guess they are just in the wrong place for 180's and using the cardboard shims to shift the barrel contact point might well correct that, but it may not be good for the other bullet weights, as suggested.

This post describes some of the history and various thinking about these things in the past.
 
My paper shim suggestion was for a quick and dirty trial experiment. To see if it was a path to follow,Unclenick.
Your suggestions are better for developing the cure,if the problem is found.

Along the lines of what you have suggested...Maybe the first part is imagining the barrel as a guitar string,and the forend as the guitar neck. The first trick is determining where to place the fret to optimize the the the vibration of the muzzle.
That done,there are any number of ways to do it .Your match idea is good.
The location found and marked,the stock can be secured horizontal,supported approx under the mag box,with both guard screws accessible.The gun crank can decide how much preload on the bbl s desired.Some say about 5 lbs.
That much weight can be hung from the front sling swivel.
Put release agent on the barrel.

In the barrel channel,at the mark,a bead of Accraglas Gel, or hardware store epoxy putty,the ugly green stuff,can be laid across the channel.I would not be afraid to try RTV silicone.

That done,I might put the eqiv of a kitchen match in the bbl channel protruding from the forend tip.(Or a rubber band,or pipe cleaner or Q-tip...The point is to hold the barrel up off the resin till the guard screws are drawn up.We don't want to mash out the resin too soon.)

Lay the barreled receiver in the channel,propped up by the wood match.Start the guard screws,bring them up to just snug. Pull out the wood match so the barrel can freely settle into the resin,and put some torque on the screws.

My thought is with nothing but gravity and resin,no side deflection is introduced.After cure,a little judicious scraping will leave a nice pressure pad.

No big deal to scrape it out if it does not work.

IMO, IF there is a flat,square shoulder and a surface ground recoil plate,a solid foundation is created for the barrel,and,IMO,free float would be my first choice.

However,if the barrel/receiver joint does not cinch up to being solid and stable,there is a "cracked baseball bat" factor. The barrel is like a fencepost loose in the hole.The scope is mounted to the receiver and the barrel is rattling around.

The forend pressure point can preload the barrel to one consistent side. It works,and was a standard.I prefer precision fit up barrel/receiver and free float.

For Mr O'Heir,I realize the shimming/dampening on the long,pencil barrels of the SMLE suspended in a military stock for match/sniper rifles was an art unto itself. I'll just say "Thats British" and let it go at that. :-)
 
Last edited:
I skimmed this thread and don't see any barrel twist spec ? If you're BDL has a 1-12" twist your going to have a hard time with consistency with the 180's. If you have a 1-10" twist then you should be able to get the 180's shoot. My 1-12" R700 Varmint hands down shot the 168 SMK's the best. I tried 175's AND 180's with only "ok" precision.
 
HiBC,

Yes, it's basically the same idea, but 5 lb is lighter than most recommendations I've seen for the pre-load. Otherwise, basically the same idea.


Road Clam,

In rifling pitch, the SAAMI standard test barrel is 12" for .308 Win, but 10" for .30-06. The 700 BDL is listed as 10".
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top