7.7x58 Jap

8

'88Scrat

New member
I recently acquired a very nice Japanese Type 99 in 7.7mm (it has the dust cover and everything!) but did not take into account the scarcity of the ammo. Who makes 7.7 commercially?

I reload shotgun shells but don't currently have the equipment or know how to reload rifle rounds.
 
Hornady makes loaded ammunition in 7.7 Arisaka. I can't find anyone in stock at the moment.

Graf & Sons have both Norma and Precision. Norma is expensive, Precision is less spendy, but I've never had any experience with them.

Reloading is a bit better. Norma and PPU both make brass (haven't seen PPU ammo, which surprises me a bit) and bullets are the same as .303 Brit (.311"). Powder and primers are nearly universal for cartridge size.

Commonly, the round is not much loaded for hunting purposes. Too many other easily available rounds around. But I have a couple guns who used to be owned by some special friends...
 
I use Prvi brass and Speer bullets. Lee has the dies.

At one time 7.62x54R was cheap enough to make it worthwhile to pull the bullets and use them in 7.7. For a while I was shooting a Japanese rifle with ammunition made of Serbian brass, Russian bullets, Finnish powder, and Korean primers.
 
the 7.7mm Jap is the .303 British, with a rimless case. The bullets, powders, velocities and pressures are the same, or virtually identical. What you can do with one, you can do with the other. The only real difference is the case itself, and the rifles you find each in.

Since you aren't set up for rifle reloading, I won't bother to go over forming 7.7mm brass from .30-06 cases, but its can be done, and often was as the only way to get usable 7.7 Jap brass.

Today the situation is better, new brass can be found (but tis not cheap), I've gotten Graf brass at gun shows (though not lately, since I haven't been looking)

the "full boat" type 99 will have the receiver dust cover, the monopod, and the AA sights. And an intact "Mum" will increase the collector value.

Later production rifles did away with the AA sight (and I think at some point, the flimsy monopod) , and troops often did away with the dustcover, supposedly because it rattled and gave them away when on patrol. Personally, I think it was also because they could, without imparing the function of the rifle.

If you have an Arisaka in military trim, there is one "accessory" that is vital, and more so, in my opinion than the dust cover, and that's the bayonet.

If you don't have one, get one, the rifle just isn't "complete" without one. :D
 
You did well !!!

(it has the dust cover and everything!)
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Consider yourself lucky, to have the mud-cover as many wound up rusting in the battle field. ..... :mad:

Now then, does it have the sling, mono-pod, bayonet and the Mumm ???

At one point, I had about 500rds of original ammo in stripper clips. Many had chromed bore and mine was" a tack driver. .... :)

Be Safe !!!
 
Now then, does it have the sling, mono-pod, bayonet and the Mumm ???
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Pretty rare to find an Arisaka with the correct sling on it. Bayonets are still out there, but are collectable too, and no where near as cheap as they used to be.

The dust cover and monopod often went away in the field, and always did if the rifle was in any degree sporterized. I have seen both for sale as replacement parts, so its possible to restore the rifle if you can get them.

early models of the type 99 had the "anti-aircraft sights", which had folding wings (bars) for calculating lead to aim at moving aircraft. This was dropped later in the production, to save cost and effort. Plus it was always of doubtful value...

They all HAD "mums", the Chrysanthemum symbol of the Emperor. After the war, stocks of surrendered rifles (mostly) had the mums ground off, or defaced in some manner. Surrendering a rifle with the Emperor's symbol intact was considered dishonorable. Information about who ground the mums. where and when varies widely. Some say it happened in Japan, by the Japanese under Japanese direction, some say in Japan under US direction some say US troops did it in the US when the rifles were imported, any or all of this might be true, no way to tell, unless you were there.

What is generally accepted is that an Arisaka with an intact Mum is considered a battlefield pick up (war trophy) and collectors generally pay more for that.
 
"...the 7.7mm Jap is the .303 British..." No, it isn't. Different case altogether. Especially the rimless part of the 7.7 Jap. Only similarity is the bullet diameter.
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd77x58japanesearisaka.jpg
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd303british.jpg
Norma loads 7.7 Jap. So does Precision Cartridge(Graf's) and XCaliber(via Ammoseek). All are using hunting bullets. Prvi makes the brass. Hornady only makes it in their custom shop and not regularly. Isn't listed on their site at all.
 
I shoot a original 7.7 and have killed deer with it with a hornady 174 RN at 2400 fps. for cases you can use 8mm mauser cases, full lenth sized and then loaded. the 8mm case is 57mm long and the 7.7 case is 58 mm long.
 
the 303 british is NOT THE SAME AS THE 7.7 JAPANESE, no where close. just take a look in cartridges of the world, the only thing they have in common is a .311-312 diameter bullet. and the british army rifles are much weaker than the type 99 Japanese army rifles with both in good condition.
 
Well my Hornady books says they are similar in power to the 303 British.

Dimensions are close, the 7.7 has a bit more case capacity as its longer. Same powder change has the same velocity. Common powders work in both. The 303 is listed as a bit faster with the same 174 grain bullet.

The action has nothing to do with it. Its the cartridge performance that does and the
 
neither were made for the reloader in mind as they were war rifles. but with the bring backs and later imported by the thousands and cheap, they were sporterzied into hunting rifles and some of the 7.7,s were converted to 3006 necked up to the .311-.312 bullets. the 99 Japanese rifles can be loaded up way more than the british mk-3-4,s by a lot(rear lug verse two front lugs also the 99 handles gas better). I have several of both and they are in ex condition that I reload for and believe me the mk-3-4,s is nowhere as strong at the 99 Japanese. in the mk-3-4,s I have found that the chambers are over size and some by a lot and you must be very carefull when sizing the cases as they separate quite soon 2-3 loadings.
 
No disagreements at all on the ability of the 7.7 action.

Loaded and performance per original loadings was close to the same.

Thickness and ability of original cases to handle more pressure?

30-06 converted would have that.

And no question on gas path safety and how important that is for that type of gun.
 
I think the very late war 99,s are what made the reloading manuals go with low pressure loads. PO ACKLY said that the 99 Japanese rifles were very hard to blow up,and stood up to 98 mausers and springfields in the blow up tests he did. I have sectioned unfired 7.7-8x57- 308-3006 cases and they all were very close and you needed a 8x lupe to see and difference in them. there were reasons the mk-3-4,s had big chambers, they wanted the rifles to work with cruddy ammo if needed, with no thoughts about reloading.
 
You could also fire form mauser 7.92x57 to become 7.7x58.

Arisaka type 99s are fun rifles, but... (just my opinion), the arisaka type 38 carbine is the most fun to shoot of the WW2 rifles that I've gotten my hands on.

Hornady does occasional runs of 7.7 Japanese and 6.5 Japanese. PCI (look at Grafs.com) does occasional runs as well. Norma loads up a 178 grain round nose for hunting that is pretty true to the sight ladder, but those are pricey rounds (like $2/bang).

I've taken mine out elk hunting a few times. Although I've yet to see an elk while carrying, I trust that cartridge to do the job if I do my part.
 
as the 8x57 has a .323 dia bullet and the 7.7 has a .311-312, fire forming a 8x57 in a 7.7 would not be a good idea. I use 8x57 empty cases to make 7.7 Japanese by full lenth sizing empty 8x57 cases in a 7.7 sizing die, as they come out they can be loaded with .311-312 bullets and used with moderate loads.
 
Its not widely known, outside of historians and people with an interest in the subject, but a number of things in the Imperial Japanese military were "heavily influenced" (including directly copied) by European designs and organizations. The British had a large influence, particularly on the Japanese Navy. A couple of the Japanese battleships we sunk during WWII were built in Great Britain.

When Japan decided to adopt a larger round than the 6.5mm Arisaka, they looked at the .303 British, and in their own fashion, "made it Japanese".

They had their version of the Lewis gun, and for that, their 7.7mm was essentially identical to the .303 British, rimmed case and all.

Their version for other machine guns, and their rifles used a rimless case, but the bullets, and pressures, and velocities are the same as the .303 British.

I think the very late war 99,s are what made the reloading manuals go with low pressure loads.
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This is entirely possible, our loading manuals tend to be conservative when there are known examples of weaker rifles out there. And, by conservative I mean not going much, if any beyond what the round is spec'd for.

The "late war" type 99s are a subject of some confusion. There were type 99s made in some of the arsenals that are every bit as sound as those produced earlier, but aren't as well finished and lack non-essential features found in the early production guns. There are also "type 99s" that were training and drill rifles, converted to fire live ammo. Those, and the ones said to be made of cast iron are referred to as "last ditch" rifles, and they are considered unsafe to shoot.
 
And if you look at the basic data, the Japanese did not push their original load rounds that hard.

Can't blame the reloader manuals in keeping it toned down for that reason alone.

Liability would say don't go past OEM.

Add in the iffy ones and.... of course those should not be shot anyway.

And has anyone ever come up with a more mucked up a firearms procurement system (more like a crap shoot)? than the Japanese in WWII?
 
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