7.62x51 starting loads

Hello,

I shoot an AR-10 in some competitions here locally. I use lake city brass and 175 grain match kings with IMR 4064 and CCI-BR2 primers. 1:10 twist 16.125" barrel.
I have tried the load I use in Remington brass and federal brass. In federal brass with the same lot of powder, I have to use about 0.5 more graines of powder in commercial brass to get the same velocity as Lake City Brass.

I have also used IMR 4064 and the hornady ELD-x 178 gr. I found it to like the same 41 gr of 4064 with the same cartridge base to Ogive as a 175 gr match king.

I suspect that you will find the best results with a 168 gr A-Max and between 42.5 and 44 gr of IMR 4064. This would be similar to the federal GMM load with the 168 gr Sierra match king.... though obviously a hornady bullet.
 
That charge range is right for the 168 grain match bullet, which is 1.215" long, same as the Sierra 168 grain MatchKing. If you seat the A-max (1.265" long) to the same COL, it will be 0.050" deeper in the case. QuickLOAD thinks that will raise the peak pressure about 6% and the velocity about 30 fps. That's probably not exactly correct because the A-max has a longer ogive and will therefore have a bigger jump with longer gas bypass time getting to the throat, tending to mitigate the pressure difference some. and may well want to be on the low end of the load range. But if I ignore that, it seems to want about 0.7 grains less IMR 4064 to get to the same peak pressure and about 0.5 grains less to get to the same velocity, but doing so with not quite 0.7% higher peak pressure (a negligible amount in the grand scheme of things).


Tony,

Note that Mississippi's half grain increase is to match velocity and not peak pressure. If you match peak pressure in the larger case, then velocity will be higher, as I indicated. Pressure peaks occurs when the bullet is only an inch or two into its journey down the tube. As it continues down the rest of the barrel beyond that point, pressure drops. In general, the more powder you used to reach the peak pressure the more gas is made so that post-peak pressure holds up better. That's what you get with a slower burning powder. The bullet's energy at the muzzle, which is proportional to the square of its velocity, depends on the overall average force due to pressure it experiences behind it as it travels from case to muzzle. Peak pressure is commonly on the order of 5 times higher than muzzle pressure, but the ratio gets smaller as the powder burn rate gets slower. All this is to explain why the peak pressure does not have direct correspondence to velocity. Changing powder burn rate changes the peak pressure needed to get a certain velocity.

Here's the general rule: The larger the case, the more powder it takes to reach a given velocity, but the lower the peak pressure at that velocity. Conversely, achieving the same velocity from a smaller capacity case requires less powder, but produces a higher peak pressure and lower muzzle pressure to achieve the same average pressure. That's all about how much total gas is made and how well it holds up pressure in the barrel beyond the peak.

As a result of the above, if you develop a load in a tight case, and you have a good chronograph and know how to use it and do all the testing in the same light and temperature and bore fouling conditions, you can then adjust that charge to achieve matching velocity in your larger cases. But you can't count on going the other way! That is, you cannot take a load developed in a larger case and reduce it to a matching velocity in a smaller case without increasing peak pressure to some value higher than the one you worked up to in the larger case.

YOU ARE CORRECT about measuring case water capacity in an as-fired and not resized case, with this caveat: Cartridges that peak at pressures of about 30,000 psi or above expand enough soon enough to stick to the chamber walls and stretch as the case head reaches the breech. This expands the powder burning space with the result that the as-fired, expanded volume is what influences peak pressure. Cartridges that peak below that pressure, however, tend to back up in the chamber without stretching, so the resized volume then becomes a better predictor of pressure. For the .308/7.62, the expanded as-fired volume is what you actually want to use.
 
As a result of the above, if you develop a load in a tight case, and you have a good chronograph and know how to use it and do all the testing in the same light and temperature and bore fouling conditions, you can then adjust that charge to achieve matching velocity in your larger cases. But you can't count on going the other way! That is, you cannot take a load developed in a larger case and reduce it to a matching velocity in a smaller case without increasing peak pressure to some value higher than the one you worked up to in the larger case

Unclenick is a very knowlegeable reloader...more so than myself.

One thing he turned me onto was "barrel time theory". You can research and read up on it if you want. But what it practically boils down too is the fact that there is an optimal velocity for a given bullet.

Several factors affect velocity like jump, powder, bullet shape etc. But if you find an optimal barrel time, which is the amount of time it takes for a bullet to travel down a barrel, for a given bullet, it will not change no matter what powder you choose. What will change with powder is weather or not you can achieve that barrel time with it at pressures below MAP, or how consistently that powder hits the optimal velocity etc.

I have found that with bullets between 150-180 grains in .308, IMR 4064 consistently hits the optimal barrel time better than other powders. And it is a forgiving powder such that +/- 1-2 tenths of a grain will not make a big difference so it overcomes some short comings in case capacity consistency, primer consistency or bullet hold in the neck.
 
Thanks, but note that velocity and barrel time don't constrain each other completely. If I load a .30-06 with a 168 grain match bullet to 2700 fps with IMR 4198, QuickLOAD estimates barrel time at 1.157 ms. If I load it to that same velocity with IMR 4350, it estimates 1.232 ms of barrel time.

The reason this happens is that to reach the same velocity you need a light charge of the faster powder, yielding a higher peak and lower muzzle pressure, or a heavier charge of slow powder with a lower peak and higher muzzle pressure. Since acceleration is proportional to pressure, the light charge's higher peak pressure gives the bullet more of its final velocity at its pressure peak than the slow powder does at its peak, starting the bullet on its way down the rest of the bore with higher velocity. As a result, the bullet covers the remaining barrel length more quickly. The heavier charge of slow powder is using its greater post-peak pressure to get the bullet to catch up to the velocity of the first one by the time it reaches the muzzle. That catching up takes extra time.

It is, in fact, the barrel time we want to preserve, so a result of the above is that you can expect slower powders will have to be loaded to higher velocities to get a best match. In practical terms, we frequently work with powders whose burn rates aren't very different, so that matching velocity is at least a good starting point in the search for a load using a different powder. But I'm also convinced this is one of the reasons you find some powders seem to produce better accuracy better than others: they need a little bit different peak pressure.
 
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