7.62x39 Home Defense?

R

RevolverOcelot

New member
Would the Hornady Z-Max "zombie ammo" be good for home defense?

How does it compare in terminal performance (or "stopping power") to a handgun in .45 ACP? (My current HD gun) I heard some say that the .45's bigger, heavier bullet will be more likely to stop someone than 7.62x39. Is this the case with the ZMAX and VMAX ammo?
 
Almost any rifle caliber will be superior to the 45 in "stopping power."

The Z-max is just over priced SST ammo---which is awesome. It's what my HD AKs are loaded with; may be the most devastating AK round on the market.
 
Personally, I would not use any ammo marketed as "Zombie" ammo for defensive purposes. Not because it wouldn't do the job, but from a legal standpoint, it can pose more problems than it is worth.

Also, as stated above, almost any rifle caliber will have more knockdown power than a .45 ACP. As the saying goes, velocity kills. If I were to use 7.62x39 for defense, I would go with something like this.
 
You have to be careful about using a rifle for home defense, unless it is a complete SHTF scenario. It also depends on where you live. If you reside out in the country or on a ranch, over penetration may not be an issue. But if you live in a typical suburban neighborhood, a good shotgun is probably a better choice. The Zombie ammo from Hornady is just a marketing gimmick. Like pluffedaddy said, just buy the standard Hornady 123gr SST ammo and you're getting some of the best 7.62x39 ammo on the market. If you want to save a little money, I have found the Russian Silver Bear ammo to be of very good quality. I purchased 500 rounds for $118.00 about one year ago on the internet. Unfortunately, the price has gone up to $146.00/500 in the past few months. I still think Silver Bear is a good buy even at the higher price. I purchased the Hornady SST for $33/box of 50. It is the most accurate 7.62x39 ammo I have ever used.
 
You have to be careful about using a rifle for home defense, unless it is a complete SHTF scenario. It also depends on where you live. If you reside out in the country or on a ranch, over penetration may not be an issue. But if you live in a typical suburban neighborhood, a good shotgun is probably a better choice.
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Actually, any rifle loaded with a good varmint round (like the ammo that I linked in post #3) will penetrate less than a shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. Rifles are very useful home defense tools, and I keep my AR ready for such a purpose.
 
Personally, I would not use any ammo marketed as "Zombie" ammo for defensive purposes. Not because it wouldn't do the job, but from a legal standpoint, it can pose more problems than it is worth.
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This is spot on. Any inflammatory language was strongly discouraged in my CCW course, and I would not recommend using ammo labeled "Zombie". Like allaroundhunter said a good varmint bullet would deliver good stopping power, but should not over penetrate. Varmint bullets are designed to disintegrate upon impact.
 
For different shooting situations and different people, using a rifle, shotgun or pistol is up to that individual. In other words, the ultimate decision about which firearm to use rests with the shooter. The key is to practice and become competent with whatever firearm you plan to use for home defense or personal protection. Look your particular situation over and think about what you should do and which firearm would be best for your location and situation.

If you live in an apartment building then maybe a shotgun would be better for you to use than an AK type rifle in 7.62 X 39. If you live in a rural setting, then maybe a good 7.62 X 39 AK type rifle might be the gun you should consider. And in either case, consider backing up the primary rifle or shotgun with a decent pistol of some sort. But no matter what, which ever you decide to use you should practice with it a lot and you should become very, very competent with your primary and your secondary firearm. You should be able to transition back and forth between them with no problem.

So, you've made up your mind, practiced a lot with your primary and secondary firearm and then "something happens" to change your shooting needs and defensive decisions. Can you change which firearm you use? Should you change firearms to reflect a change in the situation or try to push on through with what you have? If you have something pop up that needs you to switch off, you should already be prepared for that scenario too. In other words, don't plan for just one situation with one weapon. Practice with several different firearms so that you're comfortable and capable with a number of your firearms.

If you have one guy with which to contend, a shotgun will probably do you right and stop him cold. If, however, you suddenly are confronted with 25 or more looters, rioters and rapists coming straight for your front door, maybe the rifle might be a better tool to bring to bear here. If you have practiced with both your shotgun and your rifle then you already know how to use both or either one as needed and how to transition with either one with the pistol you also carry. So have more than just one plan in place to cover your shooting needs. ;)
 
I agree that, should you be arrested and/or sued for an HD shooting, a prosecuting attorney would make a big deal of your "zombie" ammo. However, I also think that the fact that you used a "deadly assault weapon" [rather than a plain old shotgun or pistol] would also be fair game for the opposing ambulance chaser: "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, a shotgun or a handgun is what most any normal citizen would use to defend his home. But the defendant is not normal. He obviously suffers from a "Rambo" complex, which is why he keeps an assault weapon for that purpose instead! An ordinary shotgun isn't enough for him, he has to resort to using a weapon that's more associated with the battlefield than with self-protection!" I'd also be a bit concerned about the muzzle blast of a centerfire rifle in an enclosed space. I know that any firearm would be pretty hard on the ears if fired indoors, but I'm betting that goes double for rifles.
 
Actually, any rifle loaded with a good varmint round (like the ammo that I linked in post #3) will penetrate less than a shotgun loaded with 00 buckshot. Rifles are very useful home defense tools, and I keep my AR ready for such a purpose.
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allaroundhunter: I like Doubletap ammo a lot. But if you look at the reviews of that particular 7.62x39 ammo (from the link you posted), you will see that one reviewer even took a 368lb wild hog with it. It looks to be a very good hunting round for up to medium size game. I really don't see how over-penetration would not be an issue in a self-defense situation against a two legged predator with that particular round. If you are concerned about over-penetration with 00 buck, there are lots of alternative shot shell loads that are more suitable for apartments and condos (#4 buck for example). In a SHTF scenario, I will use ammo like Doubletap or Hornady in my AK. It would only make sense at that stage.
 
Single Six, I would think the muzzle blast from a 44 mag or a 357 or a shotgun would probably generate enough deafening muzzle blast that would equal a m43 round.
 
I'd also be a bit concerned about the muzzle blast of a centerfire rifle in an enclosed space.
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ARs and 12 ga both put out about 155 dB of sound, so one is not necessarily louder than the other.

But if you look at the reviews of that particular 7.62x39 ammo (from the link you posted), you will see that one reviewer even took a 368lb wild hog with it. It looks to be a very good hunting round for up to medium size game. I really don't see how over-penetration would not be an issue in a self-defense situation against a two legged predator with that particular round
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To reach the vitals on a hog, you only have to get about 4" into their skin. I shoot hogs behind the ear with whatever ammo happens to be in my AR magazine at the time. When I have used my defensive ammo (Hornady TAP), I have had rounds that did not even exit the neck of the animal, but still dropped it on the spot. The reviewer also didn't say whether the round exited (I would bet money that it didn't) or not, so we can't use that as a means to say it penetrates too much. He did, however, say that the insides of the animal exploded; this would imply that the round expanded and fragmented causing massive internal damage, which is what the round is designed to do.

That Doubletap ammo is loaded with a V-Max round. It is the best thing that you can use for defense for a rifle, and I have performed tests comparing a V-Max out of a .308 and it overpenetrated less than a 12 ga 00 buckshot load (tested with drywall).
 
Coyota1 and Allaroundhunter: No argument from me there. As I said, I know that any firearm touched off indoors is going to be tough on the hearing. Still, it might all be a moot point if you have time to don hearing protection in such a scenario. Massad Ayoob recommends hearing protection as a basic piece of gear for any HD "roll out" kit. Me personally, grabbing some headphones during such a situation would likely be the last thing on my mind, but then again, Ayoob knows his stuff.
 
He did, however, say that the insides of the animal exploded; this would imply that the round expanded and fragmented causing massive internal damage, which is what the round is designed to do.
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A wild pig or hog is a very tough animal. You would know better than me, but I would guess most wild pigs are taken at 50 to 100 yds. Most self-defense incidents, between humans, take place between 0-21 feet, and in many cases 0-10 feet. It's hard for me to believe that a 123gr bullet, traveling at 2400 feet per second, is not going to pass all the way through the comparatively soft tissue/muscle of a human predator, when fired at 0-21 feet.

Below is an excellent video that backs up what you say about the .223 varmint rounds but at a distance of 200 yds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqmclsRQmM


And here is an excellent article from Guns&Ammo that pretty much supports your view but even the author of this article states he wouldn't use any rifle caliber larger than .223 for inside the home.

http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/02/10/long-guns-short-yardage-is-223-the-best-home-defense-caliber/

After reading the Guns& Ammo article and reading your opinions, I have been persuaded that an AR 15 in .223, with the right ammo, just might be an acceptable means of home defense. But I still wouldn't risk using a larger caliber rifle. My first choice for inside the home would still be a shotgun with a pistol backup.
 
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Rifleman, I am not saying that the round will stop inside of the assailant, I would bet money that it would not.

What I am saying, however, is that it will have significantly less energy upon exiting than a 00 buckshot load will because the 7.62 round will fragment and tumble, and lose stability as well as velocity. The 00 buckshot load will lose some velocity, but because its .32 caliber projectiles have more mass, they will not as much velocity.

There is more to the explanation, but that is the basic principle.


I personally have never tested the penetration of #4 buckshot, but when I have compared a .308 v-max round against a load of 00 buckshot, the .308 round penetrated less drywall.
 
Rifleman1952, thanks for that great G&A article. By the way, I still think that if the homeowner finds himself in a legal bind over his incident, the "assault weapon" card will almost certainly be played. I see no need to help them out.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCqmclsRQmM

I posted the wrong youtube video previously (now corrected). Above is the Hornady varmint ballistics test at 200 yds. At 200 yds, and after about 4 inches of penetration, the round explodes in the test medium. It appears to be an outstanding round for varmints and quite possibley personal defense.
 
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A carbine is more awkward to use in a HD situation than a handgun, especially if you're on the phone with the authorities. Nobody has invented a 'phone rail' yet.
 
Nobody has invented a 'phone rail' yet.
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Actually, that is false. I have a friend and member of my shooting team who was able to fasten a picatinny mount onto the back of his iphone case. It was made so that he could videotape his competition stages, but it would serve this purpose just as well :cool:


I will try to get a picture of it here in the next two weeks or so ;)
 
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