7.62×25mm Tokarev

"The Russians loved broomhandles and the 7.63 X 25 came along with it. "

It less a case of love and more a case of economic necessity.

Post World War I both Germany and now-Soviet Russia were absolute international pariahs, and not a lot of countries were interested in trading with them, so they started trading with each other.

One of the first big Germany to Russia trades was C96 Mauser pistols and ammunition. Something like 100,000 C96s and several million rounds of ammo went to Russia during and after the Civil War, and the Soviets eventually purchased licenses and equipment from Germany to manufacture the ammunition in Russia, which was the birth of the 7.62 Tokarev cartridge.

Prior to the outbreak of World War I the C96 had been a fairly popular gun with officers in a number of European armies, including Russia. Even Winston Churchill spoke very fondly of his C96.

Up until the time that Hitler came to power, Germany and the Soviet Union maintained pretty close trade and military ties, and the C96 was just a small part of that.
 
Actually Germany and the Soviet Union remained trading partners after the Nazis took over Germany (in 1933). Because of the fundamental differences in political ideology, everyone knew that, eventually the two nations would clash on the battlefield, but until that happened, they continued to trade with each other.

Germany bought Russian wheat, and other things, Russia bought finished goods the Germans would sell them. There were even military military attache missions where officers of both nations examined the other's military equipment.

All that ended with Operation Barbarossa (june 1941) when Hitler broke the non-agression pact and invaded Russia.
 
"Actually Germany and the Soviet Union remained trading partners after the Nazis took over Germany (in 1933)."

Did I say they didn't?

Of course they remained trading partners. They also kept political, military, social, cultural, technological, and agricultural ties.

They even entered into broad trade agreements almost right up to the start of Operation Bararossa.

But from the day Hitler took power the relationship between Germany and Russia began to shift fundamentally on all levels due to Hitler's personal animosity toward Communism. Those ties became a lot more... perfunctory... and in Germany's case were aimed directly at helping prepare the Reich for a war machine that would be eventually turned loose on the Soviet Union.

If you want a good indication of how the relationship between the Soviet Union and Germany was flipping back and forth in the late 1930s, there's no better example than that of Sergei Eisenstein.

In 1938 he directed Alexander Nevsky, a rather extreme set piece of anti-German propaganda pulled out of Russian history (but still a damned fine film).

But in August 1939, with the signing of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (Soviet-German non-aggression pact), Alexander Nevsky was pulled from circulation, and Eisenstein was assigned to direct Wagnerian Operas at the Bolshoi theater.

After Germany launched Operation Barbarossa in 1941?

Wagner was out, Alexander Nevsky was re-released and became practically mandatory viewing for every man, woman, and child in Russia, and Eisenstein was awarded the Stalin prize for it in 1941.
 
A small addition to the thread, the German military wanted a larger caliber cartridge than the 7.62X21 Luger and the 7.62X21 was necked up to 9MM Luger or Parabellum, if you prefer. There were some odd 'revisions' to the 7.63X25 Mauser, but nothing had any staying power.
I occasionally load and shoot both cartridges, when I can find suitable bullets. The thought of doing some load development with the Mauser round crosses my mind on occassion as I have an SSK barrel for Contender in 7.63X25. Has anyone done this?
 
The only two companies I'm aware of that currently make (and thus have ballistics information available) both 7.63 Mauser and 7.62 Tokarev are Fiocchi and PPU. Unfortunately, neither have the test barrel length listed in their published literature (IIRC, 7.62 Tokarev is often listed from a rather long 10+" barrel as one would expect on a submachine gun) so it's of limited utility. Fiocchi lists 7.63 Mauser at 1425 fps with an 88 gr bulletwhile 7.62 Tokarev is listed at 1525 fps with an 85 gr bullet.

https://fiocchiusa.com/centerfire-pistol/heritage/763a.html

https://fiocchiusa.com/centerfire-pistol/heritage/762tok.html

PPU on the other hand lists 7.63 Mauser at 1510 fps with an 85 gr bullet and 7.62 Tokarev at 1720 fps with an 85 gr bullet (I suspect this is from a long barrel).

https://ppu-usa.com/ppu/7-63-mauser/

https://ppu-usa.com/ppu/7-62x25-tokarev/

While I cannot find it now, I remember seeing published data many years ago which listed the velocity of Soviet-made 7.62 Tokarev ammo at roughly 1300 fps while that made by other Warsaw-pact countries was noticeably faster at 1400-1500 fps depending on the country of origin. While I have no data to back this up, I always theorized that perhaps the Soviets intentionally kept their 7.62 Tok ammo on the milder side due to the large numbers of C96 Mausers they had floating around (as has been mentioned, the Broomhandle was popular in Russia) while other Warsaw pact countries loaded the cartridge closer to its full potential because they were using it in more modern guns like the TT-30/33, M57, VZ-52, and various submachine guns. I also theorized that this was the origin of the "hot Czech subgun ammo" myth as Czech ammo would be quite a bit faster though it's because Soviet ammo was intentionally loaded mild.

Personally, I think the safest course of action is to shoot the proper cartridge in the gun for which it was designed. C96 Mausers are all very old now and aren't as strong as other more modern designs. Since the C96 is far and away the most common gun chambered for 7.63 Mauser, I would assume that commercial ammo in that caliber is loaded with the C96 in mind. While it may or may not be possible to safely shoot 7.63 Mauser ammo in a gun chambered for 7.62 Tokarev (I think it probably is, but I don't know for certain), there really isn't any good reason to do so as 7.63 Mauser is no more widely available nor more affordable than 7.62 Tokarev (usually it's the other way around).
 
"Soviet ammo was intentionally loaded mild"

No and nyet. No evidence of that anywhere or anytime. If you actually did read it somewhere it is total and complete BS.
 
A small addition to the thread, the German military wanted a larger caliber cartridge than the 7.62X21 Luger and the 7.62X21 was necked up to 9MM Luger or Parabellum,
Click to expand...

And shortened, 9mm P is 9x19.

The first German user of 9mm was the Navy, ca 1904.
Before aeroplanes were common, the navies were the high tech service.
 
From what I've read, it was the German Army that specifically requested a larger caliber bullet. And then in typical bureaucratic/interservice rivalry fashion, drug their feet on adopting it, allowing the German Navy to adopt the gun and the round first and do the "in service use" testing all on their own dime, until the Army adopted it in 1908.

And shortened, 9mm P is 9x19.
Click to expand...

The process of necking up brass generally shortens it. Necking down usually makes the brass longer. Amounts vary, with how much change is done.

I don't think the factories made 7.62 Luger and then necked the brass up to 9mm. What I think was done was that the same size "blank" (don't know the correct name) of brass was used the result being a shorter case when drawn to 9mm than the same blank being drawn to necked .30.
 
"I don't think the factories made 7.62 Luger and then necked the brass up to 9mm. What I think was done was that the same size "blank" (don't know the correct name) of brass was used the result being a shorter case when drawn to 9mm than the same blank being drawn to necked .30."

No, that would be silly to form one cartridge, then immediately reform it to another cartridge. Extra steps, overworking of the brass, etc.

I believe that were a 7.63 case necked up to 9mm it would still need to be trimmed slightly to final length as it would still be slightly too long.

I'm not 100% that there's a uniform industry standard term for the cartridge case "blank" after it is punched from the brass roll but before it enters the drawing process.

I've seen them referred to as cartridge blanks (which could be a bit confusing), case blanks (equal potential for confusion), disks, coins, and cups.

The process has evolved incredibly over the years as cases and technology have evolved.

Here's a really good look at the case forming process by Petersen Cartridge: https://www.petersoncartridge.com/technical-information/drawing-brass/
 
Regarding velocity, alleged at one time the Soviets produced a round with a lighter bullet that would achieve about 1,600 pfs out of the PPSh and PPS submachine guns.

True or not, I don't know, but that could be the origins of the "more powerful" submachine gun ammunition.
 
Mike Irwin said:
Regarding velocity, alleged at one time the Soviets produced a round with a lighter bullet that would achieve about 1,600 pfs out of the PPSh and PPS submachine guns.

True or not, I don't know, but that could be the origins of the "more powerful" submachine gun ammunition.
Click to expand...

Hate to break the news to you, but you can get better than that speed in a shorter barrel from currently produced ammo with regular weight bullets.

https://www.shootingtimes.com/editorial/converting-a-1911-to-7-62x25-tokarev/99440
 
"Hate to break the news to you, but you can get better than that speed in a shorter barrel from currently produced ammo with regular weight bullets."

Did I say you couldn't?

Hate to break it to you, but I'm talking about rounds loaded in the Soviet Union 75 years ago using powder technology and formulations from the World War I era.

Soviet propellant science remained significantly behind the West in its capabilities until well after World War II, both in manufacturing methods and in varieties.

With little to no domestic consumer market for small arms ammunition in the Soviet Union's powder manufacturing tended to focus on finding a propellant blend that worked well at meeting the specific requirements of a particular cartridge and ended there.

There was nothing like the huge variety of commercial and military powers to choose from or to drive R&D and progress as there was in the West.
 
Mike Irwin said:
Hate to break it to you, but I'm talking about rounds loaded in the Soviet Union 75 years ago using powder technology and formulations from the World War I era.
Click to expand...

Then you should have been specific in your post. You weren't. We're not mind readers.

Also, if you're going to make that claim, then please provide evidence that supports it. Otherwise, why should we believe you?
 
"Regarding velocity, alleged at one time the Soviets produced a round with a lighter bullet that would achieve about 1,600 pfs out of the PPSh and PPS submachine guns."

If that's not specific enough for you, I can't be bothered to do your analysis for you.



"If you're going to make that claim..."

This statement isn't clear enough for you?

"True or not, I don't know, but that could be the origins of the "more powerful" submachine gun ammunition."

That's EXACTLY what you were asking for, but AFTER I had already posted it.


If you can't be bothered to read AND comprehend, then don't post.
 
Mike Irwin said:
"Regarding velocity, alleged at one time the Soviets produced a round with a lighter bullet that would achieve about 1,600 pfs out of the PPSh and PPS submachine guns."

If that's not specific enough for you, I can't be bothered to do your analysis for you.



"If you're going to make that claim..."

This statement isn't clear enough for you?

"True or not, I don't know, but that could be the origins of the "more powerful" submachine gun ammunition."

That's EXACTLY what you were asking for, but AFTER I had already posted it.


If you can't be bothered to read AND comprehend, then don't post.
Click to expand...

"Alleged", is meaningless. It requires evidence. It's alleged that the moon is made of cheese. See the issue? Comprehend?

If you can't provide evidence for your claim, then don't post.
 
By definition, alleged mean unproven.

If something is factually proven, then it is no longer alleged.

As I stated, it is alleged that the Soviets produced light-bullet variations at increased velocity.

It is alleged because, as far as I know, there is no factual or definitive proof that such ammunition was, in fact, manufactured, only claims that have been made over the years.

Break out your dictionary and figure it out.
 
What evidence exists that the original 7.62x25 Tok was not loaded to the same specs as current ammo?
 
It would be interesting to see at what point in the manufacturing process that a 9x19 tapered case started looking different from a 7.65x21 bottleneck.

Back when the CZ52 was the most stylish surplus, it was widely thought that Czech 7.62x25 ammunition was at the highest velocity.
 
"What evidence exists that the original 7.62x25 Tok was not loaded to the same specs as current ammo?"

You really don't understand what the word alleged means, do you?
 
"It would be interesting to see at what point in the manufacturing process that a 9x19 tapered case started looking different from a 7.65x21 bottleneck."

Well, I suspect it would be at the pinch trim, which establishes a cartridge's overall length.

That would leave the 7.6* cases at a longer length than the 9mm.

Neck forming happens after that, and that's when you can really start to tell what the final bottlenecked case is going to look like.
 
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