7/31/2012 Miami Gunfight Video

Silver00LT, how do you reach this conclusion? According to the article linked in the OP, and also this report, published yesterday, about the testimony of the wounded officer at the bail hearing for the surviving suspect, detectives were conducting a "knock and talk" investigation.

As I said above, we're not going to speculate in this thread, nor are we going to discuss perceived shortcomings of law enforcement in general.
 
Good Guys Won

Bottom line is that the guy they came for is in custody. The guy that attacked them is on the ground. The officer who made that head shot did a fantastic job. I would agree that the car could have easily been checked. The officer who was hit survived and that is the most important thing.

If we all take something away from this it should be that one shot does not stop a gunfight and that center mass hit was well placed.

Regards, Vermonter
 
If we all take something away from this it should be that one shot does not stop a gunfight and that center mass hit was well placed.
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I also take away an observation that courage, strength of will and determination were very nearly enough for one armed gunman to overcome four armed and armored police officers and only the bad guy's lack of tactical skill and marksmanship won the day for the good guys.

And when I see three plainclothes police officers wearing ballistic vests and rushing a house, the first thought that enters my mind is NOT that they are there for tea and scones.
 
Post #53; SEAL VI/DevGru...

Post 53 makes a valid point which is why elite units like ISA, ACE, HRT, BORTAC, DevGru(also known as SEAL Team 6) etc stress selection & training so much.

After the Trident Spear mission in 2011, much media spin was made about the elite SEALs of SEAL Team 6 aka: DevGru or Development Group(a unit name the Navy & SOCOM has modified again).
One of the few selection elements of DevGru made public was how photos of all new unit selectees were placed in a long hallway, SEALs & officers in the unit would walk down & pick who they knew or would think could do well in DevGru.
These tier one level units train constantly and get the best weapons/equipment they can. They plan & train hard because all the members know it's a split second movement or act that can be the difference in some spec ops missions.


ClydeFrog
 
Bottom line is that the guy they came for is in custody. The guy that attacked them is on the ground. The officer who made that head shot did a fantastic job. I would agree that the car could have easily been checked.
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Ah, the wonders of omniscient hindsight! Maybe the car could have been checked, maybe not. What about the other car? Other truck? Bed of the truck? Behind the vehicles? Up in the tree? Roof of the house?

From the video shown, there were a lot of places that a person could have been secreted in the yard. Could all of them be "easily checked" by the officers whilst still doing their job? Could the three officers be checking all nooks and crannies while covering one another (which they should also be doing) and still trying to make contact with the obvious suspect on the porch?

And when I see three plainclothes police officers wearing ballistic vests and rushing a house, the first thought that enters my mind is NOT that they are there for tea and scones.
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Walking up to the house is now considered to be rushing it?
 
20/20

Ah, the wonders of omniscient hindsight!
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Yes hindsight is always 20/20 for sure. I am simply saying that the operation ended with desired outcomes save for the one injured officer who did not loose his life prematurely.

That head shot was a tough one for sure.

Regards, Vermonter
 
Walking up to the house is now considered to be rushing it?
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I would say a gang of men team up in a hidden location and all the sudden..? lets say "converge" on a home could be considered "rushing it".
 
I read most of the comments so I won't dwell on the fact that the officers failed to clear and secure the area they were passing. I know these are not SWAT officers, but with 3 officers going in, 2 of them could have taken the flanks and check the vehicles. I'm sure it was tunnel vision that caused it. The articles clearly state that the officers were performing a "knock and talk" rather than going in with a warrant. Regardless, I believe the other officers should have cleared the areas they were passing and taken a flanking position.

I am not sure if the officers were justified in approaching with weapons drawn, but they should have had their hands on their weapons with all retention devices off. I know many officers have their hands on their weapons when making traffic stops at night. You need every advantage you can get since you will already be behind the reaction curve if the person has a weapon.

Another thing to remember is that we are watching surveillance video from the growers recorder. They could have been monitoring the screen and come out with more weapons. If a couple of guys came out with assault rifles, the officers would not have made it. The officers are also very lucky that the guy in the car did not have more serious fire power such as a full auto weapon.

So basically, in hind sight, from my arm chair quarterback position, I would have had one or two officers approach from the center to do the "knock and talk" while two officers approached from the sides with weapons ready. The officers need to clear and safe the areas they are passing just as they would if they were inside a building where a bad guy could be waiting to ambush them.
 
So basically, in hind sight, from my arm chair quarterback position, I would have had one or two officers approach from the center to do the "knock and talk" while two officers approached from the sides with weapons ready. The officers need to clear and safe the areas they are passing just as they would if they were inside a building where a bad guy could be waiting to ambush them.
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I agree and to add to your point, an officer in an over watch/covering position. One man, preferably armed with a rifle but something is better than nothing, could have hung back at the street behind a cruiser with better view of the entire situation as it unfolded, probably could have IDd and dropped the shooter as he was getting off his first round, maybe sooner.
 
Someone above mentioned the latecomer in the red truck as being late to the scene - but I have a suspicion he was not late to the scene but was, in fact, covering the back. It doesn't seem to be a side property and very likely he had no access from back to front, so he probably had to get in his truck and drive back around to the front after the firing started. Just a guess.
 
If you ever work in mobile Security, were you have individuals who are just "Hanging out" they use vehicles in the yard, as places to sit, armed.

Approaching a front entrance, walking past a parked vehicle, without a real close look in that vehicle is a big No-No.

These Officers most likely did this kind of check, many times, this time was different!
 
Brits point....

Brit is spot on about the vehicles. Doing armed security you encounter people from all walks of life. Many people like to hide in or near vehicles. Other residents in a complex may smoke or chat on a cell phone/use WiFi in a vehicle.
There was a young G/armed officer in the Tampa FL area working a security patrol detail for a large firm called CIS. The security officer was shot in the back of the head in a apt complex parking lot. He died at the scene & never fired a round. This event took place about 3 years ago.

CF
 
I guess you didn't notice that they had weapons drawn.
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Your observation that I did not notice that is correct! I did not. Your observation that the officers had their weapons drawn when they approached the house is wrong.

Let's see, officer 1 walks up to the guy on the porch and is fiddledinking with his belly pouch/radio. No guns drawn there.

Officer 2 can be seen walking up with his hands slightly out to his sides, very open handed. Nope, no guns drawn there.

Officer 3 enters the initial scene after contact is made with the suspect and the suspect moving off to the side in his distraction maneuver, one hand out and one hand on his gun. And, no guns drawn there either. In fact, you can see in the video where his hand comes off his HOLSTERED gun and he has to replace his hand there and draw his gun AFTER the guy in the car gets out.

It isn't until AFTER the shooting starts and other officers arrived that you see people approach with guns drawn.

Whether guns or drawn or not is not indicative of "rushing."
 
Yes with many officers they could have pulled up and sat in vehicles awhile to observe before going up. But after they got there its like they noticed that guy maybe had a warrant or something for all three to go straight to him. And then the other guy started shooting. And it depends on how big their dept was as to how many officers show up. Where I live in the country if we need info or trying to serve a warrant you will probably be there with one other officer. And sometimes after one thing went wrong yes it was a mistake but normorally you should check vehicles when going up but that man was outside and officers were so fixed on him nothing else mattered. If it was a raid I believe some officers would had ARs or shotguns. It was not a raid. Just something that went bad quickly.
 
The main point, not enough officers! You are dealing with criminals, with hide gun shirts on. There is no such things as pot busts, visiting uncles, family members etc. You have to assume you are approaching danger!
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This kind of reminded me of the 'Newhall Incident

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newhall_massacre

where 4 California Highway Patrol officers were killed. I think it important to expect and prepare for the worst case scenario. Is that not what is constantly advised on these boards ?

The delay in firing by the officers ought not be a problem as I constantly read on these boards to draw and pause to see if the BG runs, rather than draw and fire when under a lethal threat. I think it knid of hard to have it both ways.

Think of the outcome if the the guy exiting the car had run up behind the group of officers rather than start firing, using the tree as a barrier. If this was a 'suicide by cop' the BG might have taken a couple, or three of the officers with him. I think these officers were very lucky.
 
Doing doors...

To do raids or no knock warrants is sometimes called doing doors.
In the LA area it also refers to rip crews who rip off drug & gang members.

There is also what's called a "vertical coffin" where cops or good guys stack up in front of a tight space like a doorway. Not fun. :(

ClydeFrog
 
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