6.5 Creedmoor.......can we talk?

My 1000 yard prone match rifle in 264 Win Mag shooting Norma 139 gr. nickle plated match bullets was shooting within a quarter MOA of call for 7 record shots about 640 rounds of barrel life. All struck in the 1 MOA X ring.

Across the next 13 shots they were called inside a half MOA centered area but hit inside the 3 MOA 9 ring.
 
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From what I have read (No,its not my experience. I don't even have a bore scope.Thats my "grain of salt" warning)
Stainless bbls wear out a different way than CM bbls.

While CM bbls might be a more progressive erosion/blast wear, stainless tends to check,like a dried out lake bed.

All can go pretty well,with gradual degradation in a stainless bbl. But then one day between the checking,a plate will flake off,then another.

The barrel then goes south quickly.

I have no idea what happened with Bart's barrel. It might be possible he shed a flake. I remember those Norma nickel bullets. Might they have contributed?
 
Bart B. said:
Never seen that happen. And never broke in a barrel.
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I broke in a barrel once. Well, I think I did. Went through all the motions and the bullet's made holes in the paper! If you don't have a clue what your looking at, how do you know you need to break in a barrel? Actually I'm not clueless, I recognize the hole's in a target as being made by a bullet! For me a rifle either shoot's or it doesn't. Breaking in a barrel isn't gonna guarantee a 1/4" rifle!:rolleyes: To get a 1/4" rifle you need one of two things. A 1/4" shooter's or blind luck!:eek:
 
I doubt those Norma bullets were the problem. They were the favorite of biathlon competitors when shooting was done at 300 meters testing near half MOA.

Sierra gave me a box of their first lot of 26 caliber 140 grain HPMK's to test. Two 20-shot groups at 1000 yards were around 20 inches extreme spread. Same problem with their 7mm 168 grain HPMK's; good quality copper jacket metal was hard to get to make high quality longer jackets.
 
The fact that someone can point to a single exception, which sticks in memory directly because it is a deviation from the normal outcome is *literally* the definition of "The exception that proves the rule".

It is also undeniably true that a circumstance which may be prevalent, significant and undeniably important in an extreme circumstance.... i.e, a world-class shooter, shooting a world-class rifle under world-class competition conditions and distances.... is completely and utterly irrelevant to "ordinary" circumstances and folks.

No matter what they do in NHRA, I will never rebuild my engines every 1/4 mile.

Though I will still bet that a barrel that changes "suddenly" from one shot to the next is the exception and indicates a unique failure of some kind.
 
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Brian's comments are valid and reasonable.

I've seen Sierra Bullets' accuracy data on their 30 caliber test barrels using reference lots of bullets at 100 yards. They show 10 shot groups starting around two-tenths MOA. When they're about 3/8ths, the barrel's replaced. About 3300 rounds for 308 Win barrels testing weights up to 180 grains, 1100 rounds for 300 Win Mag barrels testing heavier bullets
 
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When I last toured Sierra's plant, they still used unprepped cases resized in Redding full length bushing dies to test all their bullets. At their California plant, regular full length sizing dies without expander balls but necks honed out to a couple thousandths less than loaded round neck diameter.
 
I don't have a 6.5 CM. I have long enjoyed the general class of cartridges such as 7x57,257 AI, 7-08,and 260 rem. and 308. I own or have owned all of those.

All of them are easy on the shooter. That translates to better shot placement.

Bullets (hunting)are designed to perform on game above a minimum velocty,generally something just under 2000 fps. These cartridges deliver bullets over 2000 fps to a reasonable maximum huntng range for most hunters.

Most hunters aren't real concerned about 600 yd plus performance.

Target shootng ranges can be considerably longer.Paper targets don't require bullet expansion.

I was told by good authority that one of the reasons (aside from being a NATO round) the 7.62 NATO is used as the primary US military sniper round is barrel life. Those guys shoot a lot.

Component availability matters. There is no reason why the 277 or 257 bullet diameters could not have been chosen as the "darling" long range bullets.

If the manufacturers focused on high BC accurate bullets.

Part of why 7mm ,6.5 mm have been chosen is the typical rifling twists the rifle makers provide. And,of course,in the USA you can get about anything in 30 cal.

The 2.8 magazine length and feeding through 308 magazines with long bullets ,the available case capacity of the 308 parent case vs attainable velocities...

All of these parameters,and more, come together ...

Along with repeatable ,accurate optics,sighting,rangefinding,ballistic software

Delivering a projectile to a target has evolved a bit from the days of necking 375 H+H down to 6mm.

I'm not a 6.5 CM historian,but enter someone like David Tubbs who considers all these parameters and chooses a cartridge that delivers what he needs.

And he's a winner.

Some folks don't need to re-invent the wheel. They start with what the winners use.

The 6.5 CM isn't about magic. Its just a cartridge based on a lot of well thought out give and take. A sweet spot that seems to deliver
 
old roper said:
Bart B, In 1990, Sierra relocated to Sedalia, MO, Need keep up
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Tom,

I knew Sierra was moving to Missouri before the move. What makes you think I'm ignorant about that?

The barrel life numbers mentioned in post #46 were based on visits to their California plant in the late 1960's thru early 1970's.
 
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old roper said:
Bart B, Don't know if your ignorant but how about posting something current instead 60yr/50yr test.
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Why don't you ask Sierra about that? Then you'll know more than I do. You don't need to post the numbers. Call them at 1-800-223-8799.
 
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As for 6.5, I built up a 6.5 Lapua on a Savage action as a target gun. Doing it again I would go with the CM based on brass availability (primers options)

That said its a nice cartridge to reload (at least for an older guy). Unlike 223 I can get my hand on and around it. While not a huge factor it uses less powder (I am pretty well stocked up on powders). It also uses the same mid range powders the other guns use.

And its a nice shooting cartridge. I use it to lead into shooting the 7.5/06/270.

Enough bang to check for a flinch or eyes closing and technique.

As for hunting, we had plenty of options before and while not NEEDED, there is nothing wrong with it either. It was highly successful in Scandinavian in the 6.5 Swedish so its good for up to Moose size, certainly Caribou (neither one is consider a tough animal)

I will leave Elk assessment to others though it would seem to be capable there with good bullet selection and shot placement.

A nice slot and option the 6.5 sits in.
 
I don't believe the 6.5 CM has much to offer the average hunter. Not even sure it has much to offer the target shooter. But I firmly believe the 6.5 bullet's to be the starting point for big game! I have a 6.5x55 and a 6.5x06 and the Creedmoor come close to the 6.5x55 but not so well on the 6.5x06. For me the advantage of the Creedmoor is it come in a short action! I like short action rifles. I like on those short actions no longer than 22" barrels also. At the end of the day, the Creedmoor is really nothing more than just another good cartridge! It would be foolish to say it gave anything up to the 260 or that the 260 really gives anything up to it. Jim Carmichael got credit for the 260 although it was here long before that. Jim said he developed it as a 1000yd gun you could shoot long string's with without getting beat up with recoil. I'd like to try out both of them but not getting rid of my Sweed to do it! My Sweed is a mod 70 Featherweight!
 
Advantages of the 6.5CM over the .260Rem, 6.5x55, 6.5x06 are a shorter OAL and longer brass life due to the should dimensions. I'll agree Don, that is irrelevant to the average hunter, but it does offer several things to the target shooter. Generally, lower SDs, longer brass life and for the reloader, less brass prep.

I have a LOT of calibers and the .243Win and the 6.5CM are the absolute easiest to get low SDs along with very good long range accuracy. Don't get me wrong, not saying they are the most accurate, just two calibers that, over the years, are not finicky and pretty much any load is a decent one and a little effort produces exceptional ones. I still shoot my .260 a lot more than my newly acquired 6.5CM, but when that barrel is finally shot out (it will be about 10K total rounds on it) I'll probably sell the .260 brass and dies and just rebarrel to 6.5CM...it is just easier.
 
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