54 guns found in home of Pa. murder suspect

Wildcard

Moderator
LITITZ, Pa. - Police seized 54 guns from the home of an 18-year-old man charged with killing his girlfriend’s parents and fleeing the state with her, according to court documents filed Thursday.

Warwick Township police removed the collection of rifles, shotguns, handguns and ammunition Sunday from the home where suspect David Ludwig lived with his parents. The search occurred as police were still trying to find him and 14-year-old Kara Beth Borden.

Ludwig was being held without bail on murder and kidnapping charges after being flown back to Pennsylvania on Tuesday from Indiana, where police captured him following a chase.

Police allege Ludwig shot Michael and Cathryn Borden on Sunday at their home in Lititz following an argument over his relationship with Kara. The two had been dating, apparently secretly, according to friends and witnesses.

Ludwig was arrested Monday after crashing his parents’ car into a tree in Belleville, Ind., about 600 miles from the murder scene, during a police chase. Neither Ludwig nor the girl, who has not been charged, was injured in the crash.

Investigators have said they are treating Kara Borden as a victim but that the investigation is continuing.

Ludwig’s parents, Gregory and Jane Ludwig, issued a statement Wednesday expressing their sorrow over the slayings but have not spoken publicly. They have not returned multiple phone messages seeking comment.

It was unclear whether the confiscated weapons belonged to Ludwig or his parents.

Teen liked to hunt
David Ludwig apparently was an avid hunter and posted 20 pictures labeled “Hunting 2004” on a Web site that included an image of him posing with freshly killed deer.

Neither of Ludwig’s parents is licensed as a firearms dealer or collector, according to the national licensing center of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
Police were not immediately available Thursday to comment on the search. Lancaster County District Attorney Donald Totaro declined to comment, and attorneys for Ludwig did not immediately return telephone calls seeking comment.

The Bordens were each shot once in the head with what authorities said was probably a .40-caliber handgun.

Mike Borden worked for a printing company, and his children were home-schooled, said neighbor Tod Sherman. Sherman said the family knew Ludwig through a home-schooling network.

Kara’s 13-year-old sister, Katelyn, told investigators her parents were shot after they argued with Ludwig for about an hour, according to court papers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10087890/
 
18 years old and owns 54 guns??? Someone bought them for him, especially the handguns, or they were obtained through less than legal means.
 
Kind of reads like the script of Natural Born Killers in a way.



Clear solution:
Ban Woody Harrelson.
(and his anti gun rhetoric BTW)

Anyhow - odd what jumps out at ya.
I didn't see the 18 and guns thing.
What caught my eye was 18 year old guy and 14 year old girl.
 
Neither of Ludwig’s parents is licensed as a firearms dealer or collector, according to the national licensing center of the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Does anybody else see something wrong with this statement?
 
I've said it before .... this is what happens when we sit quietly & allow the "news" media to frame the discussion over what constitutes "normal" in terms of gun ownership.

So they had 54 guns ... what kinds of guns? Geez, by the time you get a shottie, bolt-action rifle, modern autoloading rifle, Garand (for history's sake), lever-action 30-30, lever-action .22 (for the kids), semi-auto .22, .22 semi-auto pistol, .22 revolver, good 'ol .357 revolver, .45 semi-auto, etc. etc. etc. ...

See how fast they add up? To most of us, 54 guns is just good variety (and a reason to envy the dude who had the foresight to NOT sell any of his guns). But left up to the "news" media's spin ... um, I mean, "analysis", it turns into an ARSENAL:eek:

Why don't they point out that it only took ONE gun for him to kill those people? What if the kid had used an axe to do it ... would the "media" have gone ballistic over the 72 woodworking tools in the family's torture chamber ... um, I mean, shed?

It just burns me up that we, as gun owners, practically never get a fair shake in the media (the occasional Fox News article excepted...):mad:
 
FoxNews.com is running the story, too. My e-mail response to them:
___________________________

I think it's unfortunate that Fox News marches blindly in step with the other news organizations in publishing the story "54 Guns Seized From Ludwig Home". Making an issue of the number of firearms in the home misses the point, and makes an invalid suggestion - that a certain number of firearms in a home predisposes someone to murder.

First of all, what difference does it make how many firearms were in the home? Whether it was 54 or 540 - it only took one gun to murder Michael and Cathryn Borden. The number of guns in the home is irrelevant.

Secondly, the article makes no mention of what kinds of firearms were in the home, whether or not they may have been collectors items or perhaps passed down from prior generations. Were there more hunters in the family? Might they have been competitive shooters? The headline makes an issue of 54 guns, but then doesn't address that very fact.

I hope you'll put more consideration into your headlines in the future. Although Fox News is quite possibly the only news organization to run articles which put firearms in a more appropriate context, this headline is an unfortunate exception. Understandably, headlines are intended to get a reader's attention, but making an issue over the number of guns in a household is misleading, has no place in the actual story, is a disservice to gun owners and collectors, and reflects badly on Fox News.
_______________________

Do they care? Probably not. But I'm not going to sit quietly.
 
Licensed What?

Licensed Collector? How many guns do you need to have in your home before you need a " Collectors" license? some one enlighten me. i was thinking didnt matter as long as they arent full auto. plz help my mind is marshmellow over this one.
 
Thats the kicker! The writer is insinuating that a crime was committed by having 54 firearms and no license when in fact it is irrellevant because a license is not required in the first place!!!.
I have my Maryland firearms collectors permit. It was FREE, and all it allows me to do is bypass the 1 regulated firearm per month rule. Anybody can get them. It's all pretty stupid to me. But the point is, the fact that they were unlicensed as a dealer or collector has absolutely no bearing on the story other than to make the article one useless paragraph longer.
 
It just burns me up that we, as gun owners, practically never get a fair shake in the media (the occasional Fox News article excepted...)
This is no surprise - the media is controlled by leftist/socialist antigun bigots; the newscasters and reporters are their mouthpieces, parroting the party line to get and keep their jobs.

Objective, factual, non-biased reporting simply is not a part of their agenda. Their holy grail is socialism and they will say and do whatever it takes to brainwash The Sheeple into accepting socialism as a good thing. It has been going on for decades.

The news media suffers a lack of credibility in the eyes of a significant segment of the American public, and this outrages them. Not everyone is as blind and gullible as they hope, it turns out.

54 guns is not an arsenal, just a damn nice collection, but to the antigun bigots, any more than one is an arsenal.
 
"54 guns in a Pa home. Neither a lot or unusual."

Might be on the high side for most people, but no, you're right, multiple firearms in a single home aren't at all unusual.
 
What a POS.

If I had a kid that cost me my collection by going out raping and killing other people I'd ask to be the one sticking the needle in his arm. :mad:
 
FOX news is based in New York. People there think New York is the way things are done everywhere. They do not understand "Flyover Country". New York requires permits for everything.

Even Judge Napolitano made reference to the guns being legal if they were licensed!!!!

PA does not require licensing for any firearms save Class 3.

They did list some of the guns, including 3 AR15's (Gasp!!!) 22,38, 357 and a "Glock" handguns!!!

And I believe pump shotguns also!!!


Horrors! An arsenal:eek:

And the perp was Homeschooled:eek:



(Meanwhile NY State is letting 29 sex offenders out of prison)
 
I was curious about the big deal the press made of people owning 54 guns and not being licensed dealers or collectors. My safe is nearly full and there may be at least that many in there.

I got my first single shot .22 rifle for my 6th birthday in 1932 (I'm not old - I've just lived a long time). When the National Firearms Act was passed in 1934, I had one of the guns listed - a single shot .410 pistol H&R Handy Gun. Why a single shot .410 pistol (12" barrel and chambered only for 2 1/2" shells) was classified with Thompson submachine guns only the bureaucrats in the ATF knows. It was pure joy to me to reduce the overpopulation ;) of jack rabbits, prairie dogs, and an occasional unwary pheasant with the Handy Gun.

Registration cost $200.00 1934 dollars - significant amount at that time. It also required a statement on the form as to why such weapon was owned so I listed that I was a "gun collector". I was 8 years old and my "collection", in addition to the .22 rifle and .410 pistol consisted of a .410 double barrel shotgun and an old Winchester 94 in Winchester 32 Special that I dearly loved!!!

I solld a gun in 1940 and have regretted it since and would never sell another. I'm not really a "collector" in the true sense - I'm more of an accumulator. The BATFE still refuses to remove the Handy Gun from the restricted list even though it's clearly not any threat to society and they have reclassified it as a "Curio & Relic". T/C sells a .410 pistol that differs only in that it is rifled so .45 ammo can be shot in it - shows the wonders of the mind of bureaucrats. Currently, there is no legal way to register one and, if found in possession of an unregistered speecimen, the fine is $10,000.00!!!

We've made strides over the antigunners recently but getting a fair shake from the press (and BATFE) is not likely on the horizon.

:rolleyes: :barf: :mad:
 
Another article with "Dire references"

From the Lancaster Intelligencer Journal
http://local.lancasteronline.com/4/18684

54 guns, ammo seized from Ludwig home
Cache of weapons found in Lititz family's house includes three assault rifles, shotguns and handguns.

By Janet Kelley
Lancaster New Era

Published: Nov 17, 2005 12:58 PM EST

LANCASTER COUNTY, PA - David G. Ludwig obviously had access to guns.


Police have charged the 18-year-old with shooting and killing his girlfriend’s parents on Sunday.

But investigators didn’t know just how many guns the young man had available to him until they searched his family’s Warwick Township home.

More than 50 weapons — including three assault rifles, plus numerous shotguns, handguns, rifles, scopes and bullets — were confiscated from the Ludwig home on Sunday, according to court documents.

The weapons were confiscated along with the young man’s computer, when detectives searched the Ludwig home at 422-A W. Orange St., Lititz.

Searching the suspect’s home was one of the first things police did after responding to the call to another Warwick Township residence on Sunday morning.

Inside that home, at 15 Royal Drive, Lititz, police found the bodies of Michael and Cathryn Borden, both 50. Both had been shot once in the head, police said.

But Ludwig and his girlfriend, the Borden’s 14-year-old daughter, Kara Beth, were nowhere to be found.

Police said the Bordens disapproved of their younger daughter dating Ludwig and had called him to their home around 7 a.m. Sunday to discuss the situation, after learning she had been out all night with him.

Neighbors said when Ludwig arrived, Michael Borden told him to leave a red duffel bag he was carrying outside.

The bag, neighbors said, contained several handguns and a knife.

Ludwig complied with the request, apparently, but allegedly had hidden another handgun inside his clothing.

At the end of the discussion, around 8 a.m., the Borden’s 15-year-old daughter, Katelyn, told police she saw Ludwig pull out a handgun and shoot her father.

Katelyn Borden ran for cover, police said, but heard a second shot followed by the sound of Ludwig calling for her sister.

By the time officers arrived, Katelyn Borden and her 11-year-old brother, David, had run to neighbors’ homes for help.

Police broadcast a national alert for Kara Beth Borden, Ludwig and the red Volkswagen he was driving.

On Monday afternoon, the car was stopped in Indiana. State troopers placed the young man under arrest and both he and Borden were flown back to Lancaster County on Tuesday.

Ludwig was placed in prison, she was turned over to family and friends.

Ludwig lived with his parents, who police said have been extremely cooperative with the investigation.

Police said nothing about the large cache of weapons, which numbered 54, that they confiscated from the Ludwig’s home.

Among the list of guns listed in the court document were three AR-15 rifles, commonly known as assault rifles, which are the civilian version of the U.S. military-issued weapons.

Several of the rifles and shotguns, some pump-action, had scope attachments and were in cases.

Police, who also confiscated numerous rounds of ammunition, did not say where in the home the guns were found.

Many of the weapons were handguns, according to the list, including several .22 caliber and .38 caliber Smith & Wesson handguns, several 9 mm Ruger pistols, a Taurus .357 caliber and a Glock .45 caliber handgun.

Friends have said that Ludwig and his family hunted. While police were searching for the missing teens, investigators mentioned that the family had suggested they look at their hunting cabin in Juniata County.

Ludwig’s parents, Gregory and Jane, issued a statement Wednesday, asking for prayers and apologizing for the incident.

“We are so truly sorry any of this has occurred, and are grateful for the great care being given to the Borden family,’’ the Ludwigs’ statement read.

“This town has suffered great tragedy,’’ the Ludwigs continued, asking the public to pray for “all who have been stunned by these events.’’

Ludwig’s father, friends said, is a pilot for a commercial airline and his mother home-schools her children, including the defendant.

Local defense attorneys, Deputy Public Defender Merrill Spahn and Assistant Public Defender James Gratton, announced that they would be representing Ludwig throughout the legal process.

Ludwig, who was described by Spahn as “scared, anxious and confused,” is in Lancaster County Prison where he will remain at least until the preliminary hearing.

Lancaster County District Attorney Donald Totaro said he would be prosecuting the case, along with Warwick Township Police Detective Lt. Ed Tobin, when it comes to court.

Spahn and Gratton officially made their representation of Ludwig known at a press briefing Wednesday afternoon outside the Lancaster County Office of the Public Defender.

“Over the coming days, we will strive to determine what, in fact, occurred last Sunday morning and what may have led to these tragic events,” Spahn said.

The defense attorneys said they have met with Ludwig and members of his family.

“They are supportive of David,” Spahn said. “At this time, the concerns and thoughts of the Ludwig family are with the Borden family, their own family and everyone who has been touched by this tragedy.”

The Ludwig also said in their prepared statement, “Living inside the devastation of this unimaginably horrible week, no words can adequately express the sorrow, shock and senselessness of what we are all experiencing.”

In asking that the media respect their privacy, the Ludwigs’ statement requests that both families need to “privately process events which challenged everything about us.’’

“Please understand that rampant curiosity only hinders the good efforts of the authorities and those helping us sort the pieces of our shattered lives,’’ the statement continued.

Spahn said the investigation into what happened is not over.

“There are a multitude of witnesses yet to be interviewed,” Spahn said. “David Ludwig is presumed to be innocent of these allegations, and he remains such.

“Until four days ago, he was an 18-year-old young man, not unlike any other 18-year-old man here in Lancaster County. Over the last four days, he has been subjected to a nationwide manhunt and mass media scrutiny. Currently, his condition is that he is physically sound, but understandably scared, anxious and confused.”

Kara Beth Borden also has an attorney looking out for her legal interests.

Lancaster attorney Robert D. Beyer said he met with Borden, her family and court-appointed guardian on Tuesday and Wednesday.

“I think she’s scared and still in shock,” Beyer said.

“She’s not a defendant,’’ Beyer emphasized, “she’s a victim.”

Beyer explained that although his law firm, Goldberg, Knisely & Beyer, handles a large amount of criminal defense work, “we represent victims all the time.”

“Everybody — the government, the district attorney, the family and her court-appointed guardian — everybody wants to make sure she is protected as a victim and as a witness, and particularly, as a child,” Beyer said. “They are taking all the precautionary measures necessary to insulate her from the onslaught of the media.”

In addition to the three children at home, the Bordens had two sons, both in their 20s. James Borden reportedly is in graduate school in Chicago, while the other adult son, Justin, is stationed with the military in Maryland, having returned recently from Iraq.

At a prayer service Wednesday at the Monterey Chapel in Leola, where the Borden family were members, friends prayed for the Borden children and for the forgiveness of Ludwig.

More than 100 people gathered for about two hours inside the Borden family’s home church — a simple chapel with just 24 pews — where members learned of the couple’s death during Sunday morning services.

A funeral for the Bordens will be held at 1 p.m. Saturday at Good Shepherd Chapel at Lancaster Bible College, 901 Eden Road.

(Staff writer John M. Hoober III contributed to this report).

Emphasis mine
 
they are probably the fathers guns i doubt an 18 year old can save up engough money to buy that amount of guns.

i think the press is trying to make it look like they are all the kids guns to make better news
 
They were almost certainly his parents guns and I hold those people responsible for this animal having access to them.

Reports out today indicate this criminal made a movie with a friend where they outlined how they were going to commit a nightime home invasion, how they were going to kill people and having sex with the girlfriend and wanting to with her younger sister. The home invasion apparently did not happen becasue of too much traffic. They mention the name of one person on the video they planned on killing.

This kid was a sick dog and I find it very hard to beleive there were no other indicators that could be seen by his family. Those guns should have been unusable for him in any case. Thsi was obviously premeditated and I hope he gets the death penalty.
 
Information from some friends in the area says the perp was mentally retarded. He was homeschooled because his family did not accept his diagnosis and blamed the school system for his poor scholastic scores. The perps parents should be charged as accessories before the fact. The perp was allowed full access to weapons in spite of his known mental disturbance/retardation and sociopathic history. He was a truly sick animal.
 
I saw part of a CNN broadcast where they kept showing a photo of two Ruger Ranch Rifles, one stainless and one blue, laying on a table. These looked to be new guns and/or in very good condition. This same day, my Ruger catalog came in the mail. I remember looking at the Ranch Riffles, thats how I ID'ed (I think my ID was correct)these two rifles.

They kept showing the list of guns, many of which were Ruger and a few Remington 870's aand 1100's were popular. Another photo they aired several times looked to be a Rem. 1100 with sling. The news lady kept saying there was this colapsable mount thing on one of the gun's (bi-pod I assume). This whole news report gave me the impression that all of these 54 guns were out in the open and loaded when found at his home. Most of these guns belonged to the father IMO. As said before, how could a 18 yr. old have this many guns and good quality guns too. The parents should have some responsibility when that many (54) guns are found unsecured and perhaps kept loaded at all times.

As I watched the news, I kept thinking of the LA dude that shot and killed his neighbors (about 2 weeks ago) and it was found that he was a member of this forum. He had asked us for info on his 870, cleaning and care etc. as I recall.

And I kept thinking of the many post I read here. Threads about how we would defend ourselves against the bad guys and of the best way to shoot to kill, which personal defense bullet is best for penitration and knockdown of the BG. I read that some of us keep guns in every room loaded and ready to go, and how we practice the perfect double taps, etc. etc. etc. This is our sport, our hobby, and our forum of recreation. But beware, some dude is hideing amoung us and plotting to do the evil. Based on our forum writings and conversations, this could be the perfect place for a David G. Ludwig to hang out. I really hope he was not a member of TFL and I really really hope there are none of us in here that are looking for the perfect way to wack a neighbor or rob the corner liquor store. All bad guys please leave!

With what appears to be about 30,000+ members in this forum, there has to be IMO, a rotton apple or two among us. I hate to say it, but I think the internet is the free and easy refrence library of many evil criminals and many who are of unstable minds. I don't know how we would ever know who the bad guy is in here, but we must be alert. We have enough problems defending our right to keep and bear arms without some idiot like David kicking us right square in our asses.

This is some of my crazy thoughts and concerns and not ment to point a finger at anyone, or to say that me or any one of us is like David G. Ludwig.

This is a great forum!!!
 
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