.54 cal. sabot 1 in 60 twist?

fariaguard

Inactive
It is OK to use .45 and or .50 cal bullets that are short and heavy for caliber in a .54 cal. sabot in a rifle with a 1 in 60 twist?

I have a Lyman Great Plains front stuffer in .54 cal w/ a 1 in 60 twist. I understand this is optimal for round balls. At the time of purchase I was a newbie to black powder and did not know I should have purchased the Great Plains Hunter with a faster twist to stabilize longer conical bullets.

I'm trying to avoid spending another $400 on a replacement barrel from Lyman, I want to extend my range and thump on target.

Colorado mule deer and elk are the game. I have access to land but the animals are wary due to human activity and the closest I can get is 125-150 yards. Any load information that has worked for you or thoughts would be helpful?

Thanks!
 
In all likelihood the 1-60 will not stabilize a bullet well.

But if you simply use a .530" ball, cast out of wheel-weight metal, you will be fine. That will kill an elk fine.
 
unless Lyman has taken to using harder metals in their barrels and other reasons do not use wheelweight lead in a black powder gun
the alloy is too hard.
Yes you have a cloth patch, but still the lead is too hard on the rifling.
Also a wheelweight alloy makes it too hard to load the ball. It doesn't compress as easily into the rifling, thus more apt to cut your patch.

A 54 caliber round is more than adequate for muleys and pronghorns out to about 250 yd, if you load right and have proper shot placement.
Been doing it here in Wyoming since the late 70's.
But do try and keep your range down to 150 or less.

do I miss? Yeah sometimes, we all do, even with bolt actions.

Practice with your round ball, it will do the job.
A sabotted round really isn't necessary.
 
Clip on wheel weights have a BHN of 12-16. IMO that's not too hard. I can't see a lead ball wearing out a steel barrel even if the steel is soft. The patch is what grips the rifling anyway. The only problem I see is you can't use the same patch you do with a soft ball, it will make it too hard to load because the harder ball won't shrink as much when it cools.
 
Range time and faith

fariaguard
Your logic is very good and there is much merit in some of the following replies. You should have no problem killing an Elk at the yardage mentioned, with your .54 round ball. A buddy of mine just got back and took a 6x6, using a .50-PRB and 95Grns. of FFFG-Black. The round went right through him. Have to add that this was about 50yd shot. If you want to shoot a bard cast then perhaps you can locate some Poly-Patches. ...... :)

If it were my call, I'd get to working up an optimum "Hunting" shot-string and have faith in that load. Keep in mind that you have a pretty large kill diameter/zone ...... ;)

JMHO and;
Be Safe !!!
 
DD, I believe you have fallen victim to the tripe that was being circulated a few years ago concerning barrel steel. I also realize that it is not your fault that you say these things because I know the whole story.

I am a full time gunsmith and I make about 80% of my living making muzzleloaders.

I am also a former barrel maker myself.

I am also the former CEO of Cast Performance Bullet Co, and I know a bit about cast bullets and about muzzleloaders so let me enlighten you.

The Lyman GPR has a barrel made of the same European steel as the barrels they use in their Sharps 45-70s, the High-walls in 45-70, 30-30, and 38/55, and also the copy of the Winchester M71 in 348 Winchester. All of which use copper jacketed bullets and smokeless powder!

Now that is NOT to say using smokeless in a muzzleloader is safe, but that safety factor is not related to the alloy of the steel.

The softest steel used in the USA for muzzleloading barrels is 12L14 and 12L16. Both are free machining leaded steels and the take a wonderful internal polish. Both steels have come under criticism in the 70s and 80s and those condemnations came from suspected flaws in the steels as they come from the mills. The alloy itself has been said to be stressed from extrusion when it is run through the dies about 75 to 150 degrees below the ideal temperatures. Many barrel makers in the USA have gone to 1137 steel for that reason.
But what you need to know is this:
Even 12L14 is stronger (when unstressed from working at below optimal temps and noted above) than any steel was or any wrought iron barrels made in the 1880 and previous years. The idea that Wheel Weight metal is somehow too hard is not true. WW metal when water dropped is still softer than copper. Additional metals have to be added to WW to make it as hard as copper (about 28 BHN)
And as you said, the hardest thing that ever comes into contact with the barrel is either a lead alloy in the form of a bullet, or a piece of cloth.

If too much powder is loaded behind a cloth patch you blow the patch because the pressure is higher than the compressed cloth can seal, and gas cutting is a result. That is why you can only use a certain amount of black powder in a ball and patch rifle before the accuracy disappears. Muzzleloading rifles have a top velocity of about 1950FPS before you lose all your accuracy even though with a 1-1 charge 2400FPS is common.

With jacketed bullets and metal to metal contact, 1900 to 2150 FPS was a common velocity as we saw 120 years ago with the 303 British, the 32 Win Spl and so on.

I have been shooting WW metal in my muzzleloader for a lot of years. I still do. I started shooting them in 1968 and I have never stopped. Every animal over 50 pounds I have ever killed with any muzzleloader was killed with a WW ball or bullet, and every competition I have ever entered was shot with WW metal. I have several cups, awards and ribbons on my wall too, showing the 3rd, 2nd and 1st place prizes I have won. They are not only safe, they are accurate too.

The point you made is innocent I know.

I remember reading the same BS when it was printed in the 70s by the “experts” none of which had any real information at all, and all of which were professional writers, not gunsmiths or barrel makers.

I was making barrels clear back in the 70s, and I have made them from everything from a piece of 1018 mild steel (called “junkyard steel”) to 4140 ordinance steel. All were fine.

I have shot bullets and balls in many of them. I have even shot jacketed bullets in them, loaded from the muzzle without success, and loaded from the breach with good success.

Early breach loading rifles were made with very soft steel in their barrels and the paper patch was a common way ammunition was made for many years. A wrap of paper is a harder surface than cloth, and a 45, 50 or 54 cal rifle firing a PP bullet develops a LOT higher pressure than the same barrel using a much lighter round ball, and using a patch of cloth, even if you use 50% more powder.

When firing a bullet the entire length of the cylindrical portion of the bullet is going to engrave or obdurate. When firing a ball, only a small band at the vertical equator is in contact with the barrel. So a hard ball develops a lot less pressure than even a pure lead bullet because #1 it’s a much lighter and #2 it has about 1/10 to 1/20 the drag.

So don’t believe that tripe that was written about how WW ball are bad for your barrel.
It is 100% untrue.
 
wyo smith you make a lot of unsubstantiated claims about yourself.

to the best of my knowledge (I forgot a lot over the last 68 yr)
No muzzleloader has been made with a chomemoly barrel nor lined with such
as so many center fire barrels and actions are claiming to be made with since at least the 1960's.
So even though the steels you list and are more than adequate they still are not as hard as the chromemoly. C/M is used to harden the barrel and protect against erosion from hot gases and friction of the bullet. I'm sure there are also other alloys in use today that achieve the same results.

No I have not fallen for any kind of tripe.
ever since I started shooting BP guns in the early 1970s every manufacturer has recommended only soft or pure lead to be used.
They must have valid reasons for doing so.

will harder lead ruin your gun overnight no
but why make it harder than necessary. Wheel weight is harder to load,
harder on the barrel, harder on your hand and ramrod.
besides the force of detonation gasses cutting patches. so will a harder ball
that will act like a shear (scissors) as it is forced into the barrel.
The lead must be soft enough that it will compress as it follows the lands and grooves down to the chamber and let the patch press into it also, and as it comes back up and out of the muzzle.

and volume for volume wheel weight lead weighs less than pure lead.
Because the added alloys are lighter than the pure lead.

So if you are concerned about impact of foot # of energy down range, why go to the lighter bullet

one formula for figuring foot # of energy of a projectile

velocity squared / 7000 /64.32 x bullet weight

so to get equal impact force if you lighten the bullet you have to increase the velocity.
With BP this isn't always an option.

Poly patches also are not recommended in BP guns. See the earlier link for some reasons why.
 
I'm not trying to argue but since when is adequate not good enough? Why do you have to have a chrome moly barrel to shoot BHN 16 lead? If it's too hard to load use a thinner patch. There was a guy several years ago experimenting with glass marbles with decent results. The only reason I know of not to use hard lead is in revolvers where the balls cut a ring when loaded and hard lead would lead to broken parts in the loading system. BTW Pedersoli shotgun barrels are chrome lined and safe for steel shot.
 
And another who used brass balls... Not to mention the number of people using wheel weights and other less soft lead for PRB. I've only seen it unacceptable (to a degree) for skirts on Minies and oversized balls.

I've been using old lead piping, but have been considering buying bars from Rotometals with a slight bit of tin to help with fill on my percussion boolits.

A slight difference in a ball's weight won't change the energy enough to even mention.
 
I can tell you BHN 6 works well with minies but much harder doesn't. First you have to size them to get them to load and then you have to raise the powder charge to get the skirts to expand, usually with less than desirable results.
 
OK DD. Enjoy yourself and hold fast to your beliefs.

But as a side-note, in response to your statement "No muzzleloader has been made with a chomemoly barrel nor lined with such"

1137 IS Chrome Molly steel.

No one?
Oregon Barrel does.
Green Mountain only used 1137.
Burton does.
Rayl does.
and several other do or did before they died or retired.

As I said, you have come to believe the "experts" who write for a living.
Enjoy it.
 
the closest I can get is 125-150 yards. Any load information that has worked for you
That distance is a stretch for round ball use without a better rear sight. Peep or scope would surely help. I've read here & there some fellows have shot conical ball projectiles with a lesser powder charge thru a 1-60 and seeing pretty decent accuracy at 50 yrds but that wouldn't help your application because of the distance you may shoot and too for the heavy weight game you have in mind.
In this instance your kind of hobbled having that 1-60 twist I think. Could buy a new factory barrel 1-32. But this time of year I've found there either sold out or cost prohibited. Although I did find one business place that still has 1-32 barrels available. i.e. Track of the Wolf.

As far as shooting CO-W/W.
For distant shots on heavy weight Big Game. That may be your best way to ensure a complete pass thru at those far distances. (Good think'in on your part.)
 
I must correct myself, and do a retraction about the statement I made above .
1137 is not Chrome-moly, but Chrom-Mag steel.
1137 is about 98% iron, 1.3 Mag. .3% carbon .01% sulfer and .03 phosphorous

4140 is Chrom Moly. It contains all the above in different amounts plus about 1% chromium and 1% Manganese.

I should have remembered that before I wrote the above statement.

Apologies.
 
Too bad Hornady doesn't make the PA conical in .54. I've read guys are having good success using then in round ball twist barrels. I can only suggest getting some short full bore bullets and trying them. I spent a handful of days at the range with my weapon of choice this year before I had a load I trusted.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
 
Hard Ball

Wyosmith,

I've read a lot of your posts and you seem very knowledgable (plus your guns look fantastic)

What barrel & patch dimensions are required to use for a WW ball in a .54 cal?

I have tried two guns in .54 cal - a Green Mountain & a Colerain with .530 Hornady round balls & .015 patches and only got 100 yd 10-shot groups 6" plus (sometimes closer to double that)

Then I got advice to switch to a .535 ball & patches .018 or thicker & my 10 shot groups are now avg 3.5" I need a hammer to load & of course I have to clean between shots. I'm happy with this for target shooting but this is a pain for hunting (maybe 2-3 min to reload)

What kind of groups do you get at 100 or 150 yds & do you have to clean between shots?
 
Hi HPT.
When I was making barrels I did an experiment using different twist rates for the same caliber. Nearly all my test was done with 50 cal, but the principals are the same.

I found that the rate of twist was the least important thing to consider in shooting round balls. Just the opposite of what I had read, and what I believed to be true, but the facts showed me other wise.

I made barrels with twists as fast as 1-12" and as slow as 1-104". All were lead lapped to a very smooth internal finish and would gauge within .0002" from breach to muzzle.

All were equally accurate.

What did make a big difference was the geometry of the cutting heads. In other words, the geometry of the grooves and lands themselves.

I never found that any barrel rifled with grooves as wide as the lands shot as well as barrels with wider grooves and narrower lands. Also the grooves must be at least .007" deep, but when you got deeper then .014" patching becomes a problem. I did one with .020" rifling and the only patch I could get it to shoot well with was thin leather.

So my advice is to never use a barrel with rifling deeper than about .014" and I personally prefer about .008.

WW metal can be hard enough to cause tight fits if the patch is to thick and it makes the compression of the cloth very tight. So I like .008 to .009 and a .014 patch for most of my barrels.

If you go a full caliber size small (.440 for a 45, .490 for a 50 .530 for a 54 and so on) the patch material you can get at most outlets is easy enough to load, and yet is still seals without cutting.

If you get any slippage between the patch and the ball one neat trick is to roll the balls on a piece of plate steel with 80 grit wet-or-dry glued to it. Gives the balls a slight texture and that grips the ball very well.

WW balls are just as accurate as soft lead if the casting is done right and they kill game so much better than soft balls. You have to see the difference for yourself.
It's common for 50 cal rifles with WW balls to shoot through elk and leave exits.
But 54 cal soft balls often do not exit a deer. Probably about 1 out of 2 on western mule deer has been what I have seen over the past 50 years with soft balls. On deer, when you get to 58 cal and larger the soft balls are fine just because they are heavy enough to go through even if they flatten into disks. Air dropped WW is about 12-13 BN. Pure Lead is about 5 BN. WW balls will break elk bones and flatten just a bit but not much. Pure lead will flatten extremely on muscle, and bones often tear it apart.

All the old timers said the same thing, but in the 1820-1880 many did their hardening with Mercury.
THAT'S VERY BAD NEWS. DON'T DO THAT!

Mercury is poisonous and when you heat it it becomes much worse.

Use ordinary WW metal and you get the same results on game with mush more safe casting.

In nearly all good quality barrel, if you are not getting good accuracy the problem is the patch in about 19 cases out of 20. Also remember that water based lubes are good for shooting soon after you load, but they will dry out if left in the barrel very long and that can also cause accuracy problems

One way to test your patch is to use a wadding patch.

Simply take one of your shooting patches and run it down the barrel over the powder charge, and then seat your patched round ball on top of it. That way you have a thin wad over the powder. If the accuracy improves dramatically that shows you that the single thickness you are using is too thin or too loosely woven, or it's not matched to the ball. You can go to a thicker patch, a harder weave, a wad, or sometimes going to a different powder (2f from 3f or 3f from 2f) will cure the problem.

If the patch is cutting at the rifling you will not often get good accuracy, and the very worst is when the lands cut only a few of the places on the patch instead of all of them. Believe it or not, that how it usually goes. If all are cut the accuracy is better than if only a few are cut.

Using a buffer on top of the powder ( a wad by any other name) is a good test because it buffers the patch, not the ball. If the accuracy get better that means the patch you are using is not doing the best job.

I typically get about 3 to 3.5 MOA from my rifles. I have made a handfull that would do better, and 3 I can remember that did a lot better, but 3.5 MOA is pretty common.

I used to be a very good marksman when I was younger, and I still cam make a very accurate rifle but at 60 and with my aging eyes I have to get a few of my young friends to prove it these days.

I made one that I shipped out about 2 weeks ago and I zeroed it at 75 and 150 yards. It had a standing blade rear sight with a 2nd folding blade for the longer range.

The day I did zeroed the sanding sight blade I had a good day, and the sun was out, no clouds, no wind and I felt very good about the group. I had it centered, and got 3 balls within about 1-1/4" and 2 out making the group about 2" overall. I smiled about that.
The next day I wanted to zero the 150 yard blade, and it was all I could do to keep them inside about 12 inches at 150. I was lucky to have a young friend come over and help. He is home on leave from the USMC and is a scout sniper. He's only 25 and can shoot very well. He shot the rifle at 150 yards and got 4-3/8". So I know the rifle shoots fine, but this 60-year-old-has-been just can't do it on demand any more.

Getting old ain't for kids!

I still do quite well with a scope, and fairly well with a peep sight, but with open irons I have trouble now days. And a scope on a traditional muzzle loader is about as welcome as Obama at the NRA convention.
 
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