500 Yard Rifle

Bart, I'm trying to understand this and it isn't working for me.....

If good accuracy is your number one objective, I would not trust any commercial removable external box magazine rifle as being as accurate as a commercial internal fixed box magazine. The chances of that external box magazine being in the same place for every shot as well as each time is fit to the rifle are slim. Therefore, I question the accuracy level such a rifle will maintain.

The very best M14NM competition rifles had this problem and service members had to find two magazines that shot to the same point of aim with both repeatably every time used, for rapid fire matches where they had to reload with a second magazine in the 10-shot string of fire. Sometimes over 1 MOA difference in zero as well as test group sizes were observed.


Can you run that up the flag pole again? I'm not understanding how the detachable box mag can shift POI from one magazine to another. Many thanks.
 
If good accuracy is your number one objective, I would not trust any commercial removable external box magazine rifle as being as accurate as a commercial internal fixed box magazine

Are you saying how the mag sits in the rifle effects accuracy ? Can you please elaborate on this point . I'm having a hard time getting my head around this idea . I'm just thinking of it like this . The mag would be more consistent then feeding each round in by hand .Yes ? I see alot of guys feed one bullet at a time in to there rifles . Buy doing so is your rifle going to be less accurate ? When you say or imply less accurate . Are we talking 1/10 MOA or less ? I just want to get a clear picture of what is being talked about here .

We see shooter after shooter after shooter on the firing line at our matches with "tacti-cool" rifles with those type mags hanging up. The guy has to fiddle with the bolt... drop the box out of the action, fiddle with that a bit... smack it a time or two... reinsert it, then try again

If you all are talking about feeding issues and the problem that can cause by forcing you to mess with your gun and then have less time to take your shots . I can understand how that can effect how one would shoot .

Does having a DBM make the receiver less ridged and that intern effects accuracy or are the actions the same ?
 
For my part, I wasn't commenting on how the DBM affects accuracy--just that the overwhelming majority of the systems I see are not very reliable...
 
Hm. The CZ has a double stack, single feed, factory, 10 round magazine. This is not aftermarket modification of a M14 magazine. It is not some gunsmith fitting bottom metal from a different source to a Remington 700.

I have had to go through 4 of the magazines to get two that work reliably. Those that are reliable are very reliable, at least IME. As far as inconsistent accuracy attributable to the magazine, the rifle itself is quite accurate, and I haven't *noticed* any shift of the POI with a change of the magazine... I will keep an eye out for it.

Too, I had a Remington 40x with clip slot which accepted every clip I fed to it without complaint. I don't remember any misfeeds either, but this is when I was shooting highpower back in the 90s, and my memory is not what once it was.

I have no reason to doubt Bart B 's observations, just that it didn't happen to me. Guess I am lucky! ;)

'Course at the time most guys shooting "match rifle" were shooting space gun AR15s. I don't remember any other bolt gunners on the line when I was shooting.
 
.30 caliber anything will offer great coefficients .308 is a great caliber to serve both purposes... Low recoil and proven performance. The longer the barrel.. The more velocity... But also the longer the barrel... You loose accuracy due to the barrel resonating with greater length. 24" is the longest I would go... Couple it with a deresonator and you should be able to accomplish your goal.
 
Detachable magazine accuracy issues were first noticed in the mid 1960's by master class service rifle competitors using well rebuilt M14NM's in competition. When the US Army and Marine Corps shops finally worked out all the bugs with that rifle and using the best lots of M118 match ammo, commercial .308 Win. match ammo or handloads, they noticed a zero shift of 1/2 to 3/4 MOA at 200 and 300 yards depending on the magazine used. Any magazine that had the slightest slop in its fit would be given to the combat troops; only magazines that fit solidly were used in competition.

Clamped in an accuracy cradle used to test rifles and ammo for accuracy, tight-fitting magazines produced better accuracy than loose one. Not all that hard to figure out why when one realizes that all the parts of a semiauto rifle have to go back to exactly the same position with the same force for best accuracy to happen. With two tight fitting magazines, one would shoot just as accurate but the group center would be 1/2 MOA or more away from where another tight-fitting one would shoot. The rifles recoil was sufficient to dislodge a loose fitting magazine enough that one could see the shot string on target move around in impact. Magazines that fit really tight would stay in place from shot to shot. Sometimes a magazine would be "spread" out at its top end to make the sides bear harder against the receiver to keep it in place. Top level shots could tell the difference shooting the rifles in normal positions shoulder fired, too. All the parts in a rifle have to go back to exactly the same place after reloading the next round if best accuracy is the objective.

For slow fire matches where rounds were loaded one at a time into the attached magazine then the bolt tripped to chamber it, an extra tight fitting one would be used. As the M14 magazine was also used as a palm rest for standing position, it had to be a really tight fit with some extra force required to lock it in place. That also prevented it from being displaced in theprone position by accidental body and/or sling contact. The slow fire magazine was usually marked to indicate it was for slow fire with an "S" or "SF" for identification.

For rapid fire matches where 2 rounds in one magazine and 8 rounds in another would be used for 10-shot rapid fire matches, two magazines had to be used which both enabled the rifle to shoot to the same place. These magazines typically fit a tiny bit less tight so they could easily and quickly be removed and replaced in the reciver but still held immovable in place. One was marked "R1" and the other "R2" (or just "1" and "2") indicating one was for rapid fire and the first one holding 2 rounds, the other was the second one holding 8 rounds.

In a conversation with GySgt Frank Kruk, USMC, in the late '60's (1964 NRA Nat'l Service Rifle Champ) he told a bunch of us Swabbies that the Leathernecks on the USMC Rifle Team would almost fight over who got what magazine when a crate of new ones was opened for replacing their old ones. We jokingly suggested to him that the USMC team go back to M1 Garands and get them from the USN shop that built them as they had no issues with all sorts of 8-round clips and we didn't care how they fit. Garands had no accuracy issue with those clips. GySgt Kruk said that would be fine with him 'cause he knew the Navy Garands shot 7.62 NATO rounds just as accurate as their M14NM's and were much easier to maintain.

Regarding commercially available detachable mag's fit for standard factory bolt guns, I don't think they're any different. Put one in and if it has any noticeable slop in fit by moving it around, set it aside and try another one. Once you've got a couple of really tight fitting ones, test your rifle for accuracy shooting it as best you can. . .without a magazine. After putting 5 to 10 shots (whatever a magazine holds) in a downrange group, put in a magazine and shoot the same number of shots. See if both groups have the same center; last one's well centered on the first one. Note also if the rifle shoots to a different point of impact with different magazines. If you can shoot that rifle no worse than 1/3 MOA at 100 yards without a magazine in it, you should be able to see the differences. The less accurate the shooting system is, the harder it will be to see how magazines impact zeros and accuracy.

Those for high end tube guns are much better as well as more expensive. And bolt action match rifles with a 5-round clip guide in the receiver bridge never had any accuracy problems with them charging internal box magazines.
 
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Truckn14269 says:
But also the longer the barrel... You loose accuracy due to the barrel resonating with greater length.
All those folks winning Palma matches with long, skinny 30 inch .308 Win barrels not nearly as stiff as a 22 inch featherweight hunting barrel getting 1/2 MOA average accuracy at 1000 yards will win any bet you choose to make about that.

It doesn't matter what frequency any barrel resonates, whips, wiggles, vibrates; each one does it exactly the same for each shot. They all are very repeatable in this regard.
 
Thanks bart ,EDIT : would the tightness of the mag and accuracy issues have more to do with making the receiver and or complete platform more stable or ridged when using tight fitting mags and not so much how the mag is sitting in the well pre-say ? Could a tighter mag change the vibration of the barrel or whole rifle which intern would change POI per mag change .


EDIT : Truckn do you know what 1/2 MOA is @ 1k ? I would think world class shooters can do it all day long . I heard of a guy once shooting a 3.something inch 20 shot group at 600yds with irons .Just think what a guy could do if he had a scope . I could be wrong but this may be one of the biggest face plants I've ever seen here @ TFL

My edits were to remove some thing as well as add quite a bit .
 
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Yes.... 1/2" @ 1,000yds is 1/2" @ 1,000yds which isnt likely, but 1/2" @ 100yds translates to 5" @ 1,000yds which is very likely. Just like a 3" group at 600yds is Still 1/2" @ 100 yds which is Also Very possible
 
My Savage 10BA shoots .5 MOA from 100-400 yards on a good day. Just last weekend, my son put 3 through one hole at 100! Point being, it's darn accurate with a good load.

He did his 1st 1,000 yard F class in Feb. When I looked at his score on his best relay (he's 14 but does well for his age) I figured the group for 20 rounds was around 30". And that was with a 10 MPH wind end of the day.

My son was paired at the last match with a world class shooter and he was scoring (name withheld) and if I recall, they shot mostly 10's, 5 X's and one 9. This is a person that often shoots a perfect 200 score. That would be nowhere close to .5 MOA and this was literally a world class shooter.
 
Gee, Truckn, it has been a while since I shot LR, but I distinctly recall the Palma types, (also Match Rifle, and Any-any sling shooters) getting 1000 yd targets with 20" ten rings and 10" X rings, while I had to struggle to hit a 10" ten ring just because I had a bipod on my F-T/R.

Have they changed targets because it was getting too easy?


Rob, I recall zero target shooters with .25-06.
There is not the selection of high BC bullets for .25 that there is for 6mm, 6.5mm, 7mm, and .30 cal.
Also the case is over bore and barrel life would be short.
I think a .257 Roberts or .25 Souper would be about right with a heavy boat tail and enough twist.
 
Jim,
I was just going off the OP's interest which sounded fairly casual, "targets and deer" in a 500 yard rifle, you would definitely be correct in stating that not many (if any) target shooters are using it.
 
Remington 700

I bought a Remington 700 SPS in .308 brand new, for $545 and after optic, bipod, scope rings and everything put on, I was at about $1200 before tax. Love the gun but I do need to bed the stock.
 
Hi Truck,

I think you may be misunderstanding what is meant by 1/2 MOA. The phrase means 1/2 minute of angle. It does not mean 1/2 inch.

What the heck is minute of angle? well, a minute of angle is a measure of angle, just like degrees... 10 degree angle, 5 degree angle, 1 degree angle... 1 degree is getting pretty small. But the really really small angles are measured not in degrees, but in minutes of angle.

A minute of angle is 1/60th of a degree. Imagine a right triangle where the base of the triangle is 3600 inches (100 yards), the height is 1 inch, and the hypotenuse is 3600 inches. That very tiny angle is 1 minute of angle.

So it works out that at 100 yards, 1 MOA is pretty much 1 inch. But at 300 yards, 1 MOA is about 3.14 inch. At 1000 yards, 1 MOA is about 10.5 inch.

So when people talk about 1/2 MOA at 1000 yards, they are talking about shooting a group of about 5 inches. And this level of shooting does happen at major competitions. It is not a fantasy.
 
Metal god asks:
would the tightness of the mag and accuracy issues have more to do with making the receiver and or complete platform more stable or ridged when using tight fitting mags and not so much how the mag is sitting in the well pre-say ?
I think it has more to do with the magazine. The receiver's fixed in dimensions; magazines vary a few thousandths. So, to me, the big variable's the magazines.

Could a tighter mag change the vibration of the barrel or whole rifle which intern would change POI per mag change.
I don't think a magazine will change the resonant frequency the barreled action vibrates at very much (it does add mass to the barreled action, though), but moreso how it fits will change the amplitude and axis those vibrations have. Just like an out of square case head slamming against an out of square bolt face when the round's fired; the barrel vibrates differently compared to when square case heads slam against square bolt faces. New cases have reasonably square case heads so their effect on accuracy is minimal as the bolt face issue remains constant; one reason semiauto M1 and M14/M1A rifles shoot new cases so darned accurate with their out of square bolt faces. A given metal shape has a given resonant frequency it vibrates at. So a barreled action without a DBM installed will have a different one with the DBM installed.

With M14's and M1A's, zero's shift up to about 3/4 to 1 MOA across a batch of magazines. I've no data on these modern bolt gun's accuracy issues except what happened not too long ago when the military was comparing internal box magazine .300 Win Mag sniper rifles to DBM .338 Lap Mag ones and the Win's out performed the Lap's at ranges from 1000 to 1500 yards for accuracy. But that may have been 'cause the Win Mag's easier to shoot accurately hand-held in prone off ones shoulder than the Lap Mag's are.
 
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Jim Watson, did you ever shoot long range on the old, original military C target with a 36" five ring and 20" V ring that dates back to the very early 1900's? When that finally went away in the early 1970's and was replaced with the NRA LR target wit 10 and X rings dimensions you mentioned, lots of old timers threw a fit. No longer could they shoot inside 36 inches all day long and never drop a point. But the new target sure made breaking tie scores easier but you've gotta shoot inside 20 inches now to never drop a point.
 
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