This is the kind of stuff the anti's use against us. I don't care if this is how you think, but keep it to yourself. Will I kill someone to protect my own life or another's? Absolutely. To protect my car stereo? No, that's why I have insurance. If I feel threatened, yes...If I'm locked in my house watching through the window, I'll call the cops, thanks.
5 vs 1 in Akron, Ohio true story
- Thread starter ooreach
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This is the kind of stuff the anti's use against us. I don't care if this is how you think, but keep it to yourself. Will I kill someone to protect my own life or another's? Absolutely. To protect my car stereo? No, that's why I have insurance. If I feel threatened, yes...If I'm locked in my house watching through the window, I'll call the cops, thanks.
And we don't get you. Luckily, we live in society that does not believe the way you do nor condone the use of deadly force to protect property.
Two scenarios, take the age of the kids out of it, in one scenario some kids steal something are caught a few minutes later and taken to jail. Scenario two, some kids try to steal something, some of them are shot by a CCW holder and the rest run. Said CCW is arrested and taken to jail, during the trial his would be attackers testify in quite damning fashion, and the prosecuting attorney produces comments he posted on TFL outlining is vigilante stance.
So, in the case without a gun some kids scare a guy, but ultimately nobody gets hurt and they end up in jail, in the case where a gun is included some of the kids get away free, some are dead and the "victim" is in jail. How is that better? I know I am not willing to spend time in jail just for the pleasure of shooting someone who deserves it.
CrazyIvan007
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If you are a CCW holder, surrounded by 5 people, 1 which has a gun pointed at you, do you think it is a real good idea to draw your gun?
It seems to me you will be pelted with 1-4 rounds before you get your gun out.
I agree that if I were in the position to take the first shot here, I probably would. But, I wouldn't go speed-reaching for my gun when I have 1 pointed at me already.
I don't know what I would do in this situation. I guess I would hope to be a bit more aware of my surroundings and not allow 5 of anything to circle me at close-range. But, things happen. All I can do is hope and think I would react appropriately to keep myself alive.
I may try to give my stuff to the armed individual and try to distract him with my items and then use that distraction to get control of the weapon, or at least get the barrel off of me as a target.
I go back to one of my other statements. My wallet is MINE, and no one has a right to forcefully take it from me. I don't care if I have $1 or $10,000 in it.
Luckily in this story, no one was hurt, the victim of the crime most importantly.
It seems to me you will be pelted with 1-4 rounds before you get your gun out.
I agree that if I were in the position to take the first shot here, I probably would. But, I wouldn't go speed-reaching for my gun when I have 1 pointed at me already.
I don't know what I would do in this situation. I guess I would hope to be a bit more aware of my surroundings and not allow 5 of anything to circle me at close-range. But, things happen. All I can do is hope and think I would react appropriately to keep myself alive.
I may try to give my stuff to the armed individual and try to distract him with my items and then use that distraction to get control of the weapon, or at least get the barrel off of me as a target.
I go back to one of my other statements. My wallet is MINE, and no one has a right to forcefully take it from me. I don't care if I have $1 or $10,000 in it.
Luckily in this story, no one was hurt, the victim of the crime most importantly.
Exactly. It's mine. It's not yours. If you try and take what isnt yours, you put your life on the line. Looking for a fight is different than taking the fight to someone trying to infringe on my rights. If you jeopardize my life, my liberty, or my pursuit of happiness, whether it is in a dark alley at gun point or on my driveway or in my own home, I have the right to fight back.
This article has a good ending for now, but I wonder if this is where the kids go to the criminal education center and start learning where they screwed up?
As far as property goes, I spent part of my life earning the money to buy that property so I see both sides of the discussion here.
For something like this I immediately think of the gang of kids that beat up the security gaurd out west a while back. Any small group like these 5 kids can feed off each other and do some stuff they might not do by themselves.
As far as their age goes, that gun is old enough to kill and if the person can operate a bicycle then that person can pull the trigger so age does not matter much to me.
Make it a really young kid and I see your point.
But someone old enough to watch mtv and movies and play video games and hold a real gun pointed at me is a threat.
I don't have threat levels for a 13 year old with a gun vs. a 50 year old with a gun, the threat is the inanimate object in their hand that they are pointing at me.
As far as property goes, I spent part of my life earning the money to buy that property so I see both sides of the discussion here.
For something like this I immediately think of the gang of kids that beat up the security gaurd out west a while back. Any small group like these 5 kids can feed off each other and do some stuff they might not do by themselves.
As far as their age goes, that gun is old enough to kill and if the person can operate a bicycle then that person can pull the trigger so age does not matter much to me.
Make it a really young kid and I see your point.
But someone old enough to watch mtv and movies and play video games and hold a real gun pointed at me is a threat.
I don't have threat levels for a 13 year old with a gun vs. a 50 year old with a gun, the threat is the inanimate object in their hand that they are pointing at me.
CrazyIvan007
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This does remind me of one of my high school teachers. He was a Vietnam Vet. Sometimes he would tell us about his time in Vietnam. He said: "They called us baby killers. Well, when a 12 year old is pointing or shooting an AK-47 at you, you are damn right that a trained soldier is going to shoot that kid!" ...And, I would agree.
ooreach said:
I have thought about this and my solution is, "I have 200.00. You can have it all". Reach into pocket and pull the .38 and put two in the one with the gun and one in each friend until i run dry.
I know of two stories where there was a "money or your life" situation and the victim complied and was shot and killed anyway. I would rather go down shooting and take someone with me than be shot hoping ill survive.
Then I hope that you do not have a CCW since one of the main elements of that training is that lethal force is only legal for self defense not defense of property. Ignorance of the law is one of the biggest reasons I feel CCW permits will become harder and harder to obtain over the coming years. For christ sake grow up and read some laws.
In Texas, you can use lethal force if you feel your life is in danger.
I dont care if there is a gun in my face, or a guy standing in my kitchen, or leaning in my car window, if I feel my life is in danger, I will shoot. I know I am not the only one who feels this way. Thats the beauty of these laws, you arent obligated to run away. If you FEEL you are in mortal danger, you can shoot.
Who but me can dictate whether of not I feel I am in mortal danger?
That brings me back to my original point, I dont care if you are trying to steal my television out of my living room or rape my wife, you are a potential threat to my safety, and I will react as such.
I dont care if there is a gun in my face, or a guy standing in my kitchen, or leaning in my car window, if I feel my life is in danger, I will shoot. I know I am not the only one who feels this way. Thats the beauty of these laws, you arent obligated to run away. If you FEEL you are in mortal danger, you can shoot.
Who but me can dictate whether of not I feel I am in mortal danger?
That brings me back to my original point, I dont care if you are trying to steal my television out of my living room or rape my wife, you are a potential threat to my safety, and I will react as such.
Justme, I would advise you to join the forum, Texaschlforum.
You would learn a lot about Texas laws, it seems you know very little about them now.
Even criminal mischief, if conducted after dark, is full justification to use deadly force to stop the crime, a misdemeanor or not.
Texas has the majority of 28 million people who believe in this type of laws.
You would learn a lot about Texas laws, it seems you know very little about them now.
Even criminal mischief, if conducted after dark, is full justification to use deadly force to stop the crime, a misdemeanor or not.
Texas has the majority of 28 million people who believe in this type of laws.
It's hard to find somebody I agree with in this thread. Some of you seem to think 'kids will be kids' and you should give them some leeway cause they're not really as dangerous, unfortunately that's not true any more. But there are others on here who sound like they would be willing to kill another person just to make the world a better place. At least that's what it sounds like to me, and that bothers me. I have the same problem with those people as I do with the gangbangers - - they don't have enough respect for human life to think that it would be a really big deal to take it away from somebody. Guess that attitude is getting even more widespread than I thought, that's kind of disheartening.
Its disheartening that we have to resort to such things to protect our families and ourselves these days.....
You have the right to be born and to grow, but if you fail to assimilate and end up infringing on MY rights, you have surrendered your own. Yes, it is a sad world to live in, but we need to face the reality that there are a LOT of people out there who dont need to be alive, and you never know when they might just select you as a victim.
You have the right to be born and to grow, but if you fail to assimilate and end up infringing on MY rights, you have surrendered your own. Yes, it is a sad world to live in, but we need to face the reality that there are a LOT of people out there who dont need to be alive, and you never know when they might just select you as a victim.
Well, sorry to disappoint you deguello, but somehow I don't think my wife would say "Oh, well so long as a kid killed my husband rather than an adult, I guess that's OK. I agree with you, he shouldn't have shot them and stayed alive. Sure, adult no problem, but not a kid." Would yours?
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drinks & GalilARM: I also am from TX. Both of you make good points, but just because, criminal mischief at night, justifies the use of deadly force, doesn't mean you won't be charged and probably tried. GalilARM, you feel only you can determine if you feel threatened, but it is a jury (and more than likely not your peers) that will decide if you were justified or not. Remember, in either case you are going to spend thousands of dollars to defend yourself in court, and probably hundreds of thousands in civil court. Is my car stereo worth losing my home, my lifestyle and possibility my freedom? Not for me. You may win in criminal court on that one, but you will most likely loose in civil court.
I learned very quickly wearing a badge, that "Penal Code Law" as printed, and "Case Law", as applied are often quite different.
And yes, it's sad that it has come to this.
There's my $0.02, and that's what it's worth.
I learned very quickly wearing a badge, that "Penal Code Law" as printed, and "Case Law", as applied are often quite different.
And yes, it's sad that it has come to this.
There's my $0.02, and that's what it's worth.
More proof that intelligence is not a requirement for computer usage
Look here, I know the laws of my state. So watch who you are talking to. I make my career in a business that requires heavy knowledge of the state laws. It is ignorant folk like you that are going to end causing a problem by not knowing the state laws. How about you grow up and read some laws? Thanks for playing. Comeback and try again some time...
Look here, I know the laws of my state. So watch who you are talking to. I make my career in a business that requires heavy knowledge of the state laws. It is ignorant folk like you that are going to end causing a problem by not knowing the state laws. How about you grow up and read some laws? Thanks for playing. Comeback and try again some time...
I think it kind of depends on the situation as well.....dead men cant talk, of course, so if youre dealing with one or two guys, it wouldnt be too hard to use lethal force and have a legitimate argument in support of your actions. However, when a bunch of people are involved, and you may only get a few of them, lethal force becomes a last resort. It's this type of case that presents the most problems. When there are "survivors", there are conflicting stories and conflicting motives. One survivor could easily say you provoked the conflict, and could land you in prison. I guess it all comes down to the individual situation. Were not cowboys, down here in Texas lookin for a shootout, but at the same time I know I that if I exercise my lethal-force rights carefully, I should be okay. Keyword should.....
Me read some laws? I am not the person who claimed that every state he knew of allowed the use of deadly force to protect property. I'd like to see case law on that one! Even in texas finding a jury who would support you for killing a kid for something like shoplifting would be difficult.
You guys seem to willfully misread my comments. I do not think "kids will be kids" at all, but recognise that in this particular situation a couple of dead kids would look bad in court or the front page of the newspaper. Since nobody was killed in this confrontation it seems to me that it was a decent, albeit scary, outcome.
You guys seem to willfully misread my comments. I do not think "kids will be kids" at all, but recognise that in this particular situation a couple of dead kids would look bad in court or the front page of the newspaper. Since nobody was killed in this confrontation it seems to me that it was a decent, albeit scary, outcome.
Most normal people would argue that lethal force is always a last resort. In fact, you damn well better make sure any law enforcement types know that you yourself consider lethal force a last resort in all circumstances.
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