5 shot revolver training... double tap...double tap... single tap ???

[seeker_two]

Also helps if your carry snubby is an all-steel version (i.e. SP-101)....you can use the empty gun as a blunt instrument in hand-to-had if needed...

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

one of the lines from my 1st post in this thread...

I live & work in a pretty safe area, & likely will never need to deal with actually having to shoot 3-4 bad guys anyway, so I currently don't carry a reload, because of the safe "type" area I live & work in...

this thread continues to get dragged ( kicking & screaming ) into the toilet with those who continue to say that my 5 shot revolver is not enough, yet still add comments like this...

If you live in a quiet safe place, where there’s no history of violent crimes involving many attackers, than maybe your snubby is fine for what you may end up facing realistically

yes, I'm the O.P of this thread, & yes I do live in work in a more rural, quiet setting... in fact, before I started carrying, I envisioned keeping a loaded revolver in the truck, more for dispatching 4 legged vermin on the farm, than carrying the light weight revolvers I have been carryng on my belt lately...

as I mentioned, I have the 2 "hi cap" autos that I am more likely to strap on if going into the downtown metro area, ( where realistically the threat warrents something with more capacity ) but for my day to day, I feel plenty safe with 5 shots of 200 grain 44 out of a weapon that I'm capable of shooting 3-4" groups at common self defense distances...

as for the reality of surviving a gang of 4-5 guys all armed guns of any kind, & with the sole intent of killing you... I think keeping your head, & thinking outside the box, being in good shape, & having a whole lotta luck on your side is way way more important than having a high capacity handgun... I will admit, that if I ever knowingly had to face 5 armed bad guys, ( in the 1st place, I'd avoid that like the plauge ), 2nd, I'm going to run as fast as I can... but I guess if I'm going to have to fight it out, I guess I hope I'm carrying my 10mm...

but since I carry my 5 shot 44... like 95% of the time.... I need to train the most with that weapon, & have a viable training plan for engaging multiple targets... with my 5 shot revolver...

 

[FerFAL]

On the same post you also said "I got to thinking about switching around my training with my revolvers this spring / summer, concerning engaging multiple bad guys..."
If that kind of threat is not a probelm, then a revolver should be enough, but you said yourself that you trained for several bad guys.
Even if the place is safe, Id still carry the auto, but that's just me.
Question, wouldn't your 10mm be enough for putting down animals?
That way you only carry one gun, one sistem, makes things easier.

FerFAL

 

[Magnum Wheel Man]

I honestly can't tell you how much easier the Airlite 44 is to strap on all day, than the full sized steel high capacity 10mm... the weight difference is incredible...

as I've said before ( maybe not on this thread ), when I planned on buying a 10mm, I fully intended to buy the Glock, but I found the grip fit for me to be awefull... the CZ cloned Witness fits like a glove, but it is a very heavy gun.. especially when loaded to capacity...

the loaded airlite 44 is almost the same weight as a spare loaded magazine for the 10mm... If I were carrying in a shoulder rig, I might find the weight of either auto to not matter as much, but for my dressing style, I carry almost exclusively OWB, & that is were the light weights shine... for me, it's not the bulk of the gun, as much as the weight, that I find anoying...

I still keep the loaded stainless 4" 357 magnum in the truck for varments around the farm, but have decided to start carrying on my person, if it's not too inconvient, & the airlite is very easy to carry... I guess from a tactical position, I do have a loaded 4" 357 Magnum & 3 speedloaders as a back up, if I'm anywhere around my truck, should I have a multiple BG situation...

That way you only carry one gun, one sistem, makes things easier.

agree that would be easier, but right now, if I were going to limit it to one gun, that would be the 5 shot 44... but I like to be able to switch up between 3-4 different guns, each better suited for different types of conditions... & while I hope to have the compact 9mm or the full sized 10mm strapped on, if I really had to engage multiple bad guys, I still feel I need to train for that situation with the gun I carry most often, as well...

 

[Whirlwind06]

This is one of concealed carry sacred cows. Similar to the 9mm vs the .45 or glock vs the 1911 debates that rage across the boards.

The 3 shots 3 second statistic that gets thrown out on these threads. Isn't that like a 20 year old statistic? Like and FBI study from the 1980s?

Back in the summer of 2006 I had a epiphany of sorts. I was in the inner city of Cleveland Ohio at my Moms house. Helping her around the house doing some yard work. I had just gotten my CHL just a month or 2 before and I was carrying my trusty .38. I was in the front yard trimming bushes and there was a 5 or 6 young men siting on the porch on the house next to me.

I started thinking about what would happen if these fellas came at me. I have 5 shots and a reload. I could retreat into the house and have at a least a defensible position. I would still be in bad shape with my 5 shots. Granted if 6 guys came at me, no matter what I was carrying short of a 12 gauge would not be enough gun. But it really got me thinking about it and I ended up carrying first a 1911 then a hi-cap 9mm. Which is what I carry now.

I have kind stuck to this belief. I carry a Kel-Tec P11 now. 12 shots of 9mm in about the size a j-frame. A couple weeks ago I used my P11 in a IDPA style shoot, know what? under the stress of a timer and a bit of completion I missed a few times. That was with 12 shots and static non-moving targets. I guess I'm not one of those highly trained door kickers that can shoot somebodies eye out from 50 yards with my P11. The more shots I have the better chance I have of success. If that holds true in a game, why not in real life?

I would like to get a J-frame at some point but I see it as a BUG either that or I would carry two J-frames.

I'll para-phrase a comment made by somebody another board, "carry what you want and keep whistling in the dark hoping that the wolves won't attack. And your 5 shots will be enough, if they do."

 

[Lurper]

There's nothing wrong with your J frame as a primary. It isn't perfect, but it is sufficient. My biggest worry would be if it were a .38 not a .357, not the 5 shots. I can't speak about what happens in other countries, but in the US I can tell you what is likely to happen.
First of all, the vast majority of the time no shots are fired (by a factor of something like 10,000). Most of the time in multiple assailant encounters, when the victim opens fire, the assailants run - the urge of self preservation overides the uge to kill. Quite often, the assailants don't want to kill you (if they did, they would just walk up and cap you) let alone expect resistance. Hitting your target is critical, usually the person who hits their target first comes out of the fight the best.

I'll echo what some of the other more qualified posters have said:
Don't practice a certain number of rounds or pattern. Shoot until the threat is removed. If faced with multiple assailants, my choice would be to shoot the one nearest me if he was armed once then move to the next. Unless you fall into a very very small group, 5 shots will be enough.

 

[David Armstrong]

A snubby isn’t something you’d pick as your only gun if you knew you were going to a fight, you just carry it because it’s convenient.

If I knew I was going to a fight I'd go somewhere else if possible. If not, I wouldn't pick any handgun as my first choice, I'd want a rifle or a shotgun.

First, military and law enforcement personal all around the world carry autos.

And we are not talking about military or LE here, so I fail to see what tha has to do with anything. Until recently, most LE carried reolvers and would not use autos. Nothing has changed in the last 20 or 30 years to make the revolver less effective.

I’m just saying that it’s not the best tool you could conceal in an IWB holster, and if you choose to go that way you should at least be honest with yourself about it.

To me all this nonsense about caliber, volumes of fire and so on are just that, nonsense, in the context of the CCW world.

I don’t think so. You have to be a pretty lucky guy to put down 5 guys with a 5 shot 38, specially a 38.

I do think so. When the odds against you are 5 to 1, survival is not predicated on caliber or number of rounds available.

Show just what? People killing 6 guys with a 5 shot revolver?

I think you are going to be pretty hard pressed to find instances of anybody killing 6 armed assailants, no matter haow many rounds they had. There are many instances of revolver-armed parties defeating multiple opponents. The point is that the win is rarely the function of the number of rounds in the gun.

They didn't have to complain david. Plenty of them just keep fighting after being shot. And that is why one keeps a-shooten. And the 5 shooter don't go so far.

Right. So the whole cliche business that you seem so fond of is fairly irrelevant to anything factual. And the 5-shooter goes far enough for most.

 

[FerFAL]

David Armstrong wrote:
If I knew I was going to a fight I'd go somewhere else if possible. If not, I wouldn't pick any handgun as my first choice, I'd want a rifle or a shotgun.

Just handguns, no shotguns or rifles, no tanks or SEAL buddies, no going other place either.

If you had no other choice but to go out that door and into a gunfight. Which handgun ( again, handgun, shotguns can’t be carried all day concealed) you can only use a handgun and there’s no avoiding the fight, which one would you choose?

Nothing has changed in the last 20 or 30 years to make the revolver less effective.

Well, something has changed. You now have reliable weapons with excellent stopping power that have 3 times more capacity.

To me all this nonsense about caliber, volumes of fire and so on are just that, nonsense, in the context of the CCW world.

?? Not much to reply to that.
Carry a 22LR derringer?
It’s light weight and conceals like no other.

Found this for you David.
"The only problem was I run out of bullets," Picket said.
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080214_lj_hawes.bfc57dff.html
Read and learn from other's mistakes.

FerFAL

 

[David Armstrong]

If you had no other choice but to go out that door and into a gunfight. Which handgun ( again, handgun, shotguns can’t be carried all day concealed) you can only use a handgun and there’s no avoiding the fight, which one would you choose?

When one attempts to set up a situation to prove a specific point, it is easy to do so. However, getting something realistic is a bit harder to do. If I've got a choice, there is no need for concealement. Also, if I have to go out a door into a fight the gun I've got with me is the least of my worries. But given your comepletely artificial and contrived setup---It Doesn't Matter. I'm as comfortable (or uncomfortable) with a 5 shot snub, a 6 shot K-frame .357, an 8 shot 1911, a 9-shot Sig, an 18 shot Glock, or anything comparable. When I kicked doors for a living I chose to do it with an S&W Model 65 as my handgun. Maybe that is the difference between us--you want to worry about something that will never happen and make your choice based on the most unlikely events. I, along with many others, choose to respond based on more realistic situations.

Well, something has changed. You now have reliable weapons with excellent stopping power that have 3 times more capacity.

But that in no way changes the fact that the revolver will do the job just fine, as it has for a long time. You seem to think that capacity somehow makes you a better fighter or will change a bad situation to a good one. It doesn't.

Carry a 22LR derringer?

That will take care of most CCW needs. It's not my choice, as there are .22 autos that conceal just as well, but I've carried a High Standard .22 derringer in the past and didn't feel particularly worried.

Read and learn from other's mistakes.

A nice story with little value for your position, as it appears he solved the problem with 1 shot, and then they ran away. Looks like a 5-shot snub would have worked out fine for this incident. I can give you one where a .22 derringer was used to stop the BG. Will you learn from that???

 

[FerFAL]

David Armstrong worte:
When one attempts to set up a situation to prove a specific point, it is easy to do so. However, getting something realistic is a bit harder to do.

You try to deny something that is just too obvious.
There’s nothing unrealistic about the situation I’m talking.
What’s unrealistic is to think that you’ll always have a choice NOT to end up shooting.
What I’m saying is just what happens when you end up defending yourself with whatever you happen to be carrying.

1) It happens, and wishing otherwise will change nothing.
2) We already suppose that you are shooting/fighting because there’s no other option left. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be doing it.
3) If you happen to be a careful person and pack a CCW, that weapon is all you have. Nothing more, nothing less.
Wishing for shotguns, rifles, or laser guided missiles changes nothing. You just have what’s inside your holster.

What part of that do you find it to be an “attempts to set up a situation to prove a specific point”, what part of it is “unrealistic”?

If I've got a choice, there is no need for concealment.

You don’t, in most ½ way civilized places of the world, civilians walking around cities and towns don’t carry openly, not all the time.

you want to worry about something that will never happen and make your choice based on the most unlikely events.

Exactly what will never happen?

Kidnappings? People getting attacked by several criminals working together? David: IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I, along with many others, choose to respond based on more realistic situations.

Maybe you don’t share my situation, but that doesn’t make mine any less real, now does it?

You seem to think that capacity somehow makes you a better fighter or will change a bad situation to a good one. It doesn't.

No I don’t. It gives you more ammo already loaded in the gun, almost 3 times more in many cases.
Sometimes that’s just what you need, sometimes it doesn’t change a thing.
Personally I’d rather have it and not need it, than needing I and not….well, not having it.

A nice story with little value for your position, as it appears he solved the problem with 1 shot, and then they ran away. Looks like a 5-shot snub would have worked out fine for this incident. I can give you one where a .22 derringer was used to stop the BG. Will you learn from that???

That some bad guys run at the sight of anything that looks like a gun while others keep firing at you even when wounded?
No, I already new that.
Hear carefully to what the old man says in the video clip, he says he’ll have something else to deal with the rats if the come back after him.
Maybe next time there wont be bad guys left to go to trial, or to go on bothering honest people.

That will take care of most CCW needs.

According to your door kicking experience a 22 LR derringer will take care of most CCW needs???
This is getting more bizarre, post after post.

FerFAL

 

[Lurper]

This is one of concealed carry scared cows.

Dyslexics untie!!!!

Sorry man, I couldn't resist.

 

[Whirlwind06]

 

[BAGTIC]

The guy with the five shot revolver does the same as those of us with seven or nine shot revolvers.

Actually it doesn't make much difference. One uses what one has at the time according to the circumstances of the moment.

Realistically the likelihood is extremely slight that any of us will ever be required to fire a shot in self defense. In many cases the victim will be caught off guard and 'neutralized' before he realizes what is happening. The real world odds of being killed in a gunfight are far less that falling down the stairs, being kit by a drunk driver, or a thousand other causes. How many people who obsess about what to do in a never to exist gunfight drive without seatbelts, while drinking or too fast for conditions, involve themselves with the drug scene or the neighbors wife, etc. etc. There are lots of more productive ways to assure one''s safety and continued good health.

Apparently some people have very active fantasy lives and enjoy leading theme as though they were video games. Personally I am building an underground bunker to protect me and mine from falling meteorites. At least the storage space will come in handy.

 

[FerFAL]

Realistically the likelihood is extremely slight that any of us will ever be required to fire a shot in self defense.

Speak for yourself.
Not all places are as safe as yours.

How many people who obsess about what to do in a never to exist gunfight drive without seatbelts, while drinking or too fast for conditions, involve themselves with the drug scene or the neighbors wife, etc. etc

Personally I always wear the seat belt ( saved my life a couple times) dont drink, except for a beer with friends in the odd reunion every now and then. May go months without drinking a single glass of alcohol. No drugs or cheating my wife either.

. There are lots of more productive ways to assure one''s safety and continued good health.

Like people worrying about zombies when they ignore that the gut they have hanging or the cheeseburger they are eating is 10000x more likely to kill him in the end?
Yes, but you seem to forget what forum you are in. It's called "Tactics and Training".


If you dont like thinking and training for these things, or you think it's stupid...
....
....
exactly what are you doing here??

FerFAL

 

[Deaf Smith]

Every day in the papers you read of some people being robbed. Others murdered. Others resisting and many times suceeding!

Just because I have never needed to actually shoot someone does not mean it can't or won't happen. If I really didn't think I might one day have to defend myself, I sure wouldn't bother getting a CHL, or lugging aroud a gun, or doing all the dojo training I do. I mean, life sure would be less complicated and less expensive if I just decided to let the government 'protect' me.

But like Tom Givens says, "It aways happens to other people... but to everyone else, you are 'other people'." And I know the government can't protect me.

 

[David Armstrong]

You try to deny something that is just too obvious.
There’s nothing unrealistic about the situation I’m talking.

OK, maybe not, but in all the years of research on this issue I've not run across any CCW situation where somebody had to go out the door to get into a gunfight. Seems pretty unrealistic to me.

You don’t, in most ½ way civilized places of the world, civilians walking around cities and towns don’t carry openly, not all the time.

You need to make up your mind. Either we are walking around in the city or we are in a house. Very different situation.

Kidnappings? People getting attacked by several criminals working together? David: IT HAPPENS EVERY SINGLE DAY.

And every single day it is prevented by folks with snubs and not prevented by folks with hi-cap autos. The gun is not going to determine what happens.

Hear carefully to what the old man says in the video clip, he says he’ll have something else to deal with the rats if the come back after him.

And you hear him also. He didn't need a hi-cap auto loader to solve his problem. Again, I prefer to deal with what is instead of what may be.

According to your door kicking experience a 22 LR derringer will take care of most CCW needs?

My door kicking experience has little or no bearing on CCW. And yes, for our purposes, a 2-shot 22 will handle most of the DGU issues. Your problems in your country may be different and thus suggest different solutions.

Yes, but you seem to forget what forum you are in. It's called "Tactics and Training".

You seem to forget what the thread is. It is not "what gun is best for fighting off hordes of bandits in 3rd World countries." A poster asked a question, some of us have tried to address that instead of delving off into issues that are of little or no relevance to that.

 

[FerFAL]

You need to make up your mind. Either we are walking around in the city or we are in a house. Very different situation.

There's something called concealed carry... maybe you heard about it.

You seem to forget what the thread is. It is not "what gun is best for fighting off hordes of bandits in 3rd World countries." A poster asked a question, some of us have tried to address that instead of delving off into issues that are of little or no relevance to that.

That is your opinion. I happen to have a different one. You not agreeing with mine doesn't make it wrong.

And every single day it is prevented by folks with snubs and not prevented by folks with hi-cap autos. The gun is not going to determine what happens.

Crime is prevented by people with snubs, but "not prevented by folks with hi-cap autos"??
Do they have some magic property, that cna be found in snubs alone?
That has to be the most unrealistic comment I've read, ever.

. And yes, for our purposes, a 2-shot 22 will handle most of the DGU issues.

I stand corrected. Suggesting a 22 LR derringer for self defense. Now that's the most outrageous advice I've read in a gun related forum.

FerFAL

 

[Glenn E. Meyer]

BTW - 22 mag derringers or NAA minis have saved the day several times.

Not to harp on research design but one would have to come up with incident rates which examined the rate of failure of such guns to save the day vs. that of larger calibers.

As far as I know - and I know the literature and experts quite well - the rate of success of such guns is very, very high and if there is a significant different in DGU success by caliber for civilians - it's not out there and the experts don't know it.

Here you go for a case. http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dws/wfaa/latestnews/stories/wfaa080214_lj_hawes.bfc57dff.html

 

[Deaf Smith]

I stand corrected. Suggesting a 22 LR derringer for self defense. Now that's the most outrageous advice I've read in a gun related forum.

FerFAL,

david has always felt 'scareing' BGs with guns would do for 'most' situations. I guess he fells one just plays the odds. If 95 percent of the time or so all you need to do is 'scare', why a 2 shot .22 would be fine. Maybe he also has just a bicycle tire for his spare car tire since most of the time you don't need one either.

Say david, since one usually doesn't need seat belts, in fact I''ve in well over 35 years of driving never needed them, wonder why we need those gizmos, or maybe just a rope would do for a seat belt, right?

I suggest other readers here see that you don't carry a substandard gun, nor substandard seat belts, nor substandard tires cuase most of the time you won't need them. Cause if you do need them, you will need them bad.

Carry something a bit better than that piece of crap david suggest for 'most' situations.

 

[Whirlwind06]

As far as I know - and I know the literature and experts quite well - the rate of success of such guns is very, very high and if there is a significant different in DGU success by caliber for civilians - it's not out there and the experts don't know it.

Here you go for a case. http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dw....bfc57dff.html

His NAA .22 did the job no doubt.
But from watching the interview he pretty much says he wished he had more shots. Then at the very end of the interview he says something about "having 15 of something next time" then stops talking. Which I would infer to mean that he is going to start packing a Hi-cap 9.