5 shot revolver training... double tap...double tap... single tap ???

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Magnum Wheel Man

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I got to thinking about switching around my training with my revolvers this spring / summer, concerning engaging multiple bad guys... ( several of my CCW revolvers are 5 shot revolvers, some are 6 shots ), but I think conditioning to shoot 2 sets of double taps, followed by a single tap... assuming I've done my job, leaves 3 bad guys down, & if there is a 4th to engage, no one would have heard a hammer drop on an empty cylinder, so even if I happen to be carrying one of the 5 shot revolvers & my revolver is empty, the bad guy doesn't know that, & a command like "freeze or die", or "drop your weapon or die", may be all thats needed, especially if you've already piled up 3 of thier buddies, if I happen to be carrying one of the 6 shot revolvers, I have one live round left...

I also train with my autos, but what are your guys thoughts as to training like this with my revolvers, both 5 & 6 shot weapons ??? I live & work in a pretty safe area, & likely will never need to deal with actually having to shoot 3-4 bad guys anyway, so I currently don't carry a reload, because of the safe "type" area I live & work in...
 
Changing firearms is just like going from a proper standard transmission to an automatic transmission vehicle. You adjust according to what you're using. You just have to adjust. And practice quick reloads. You can't rely on bluffing.
 
It depends on the situation; what I've been training with is a multiple-choice situation with one or more targets:

If I'm aware of two or more targets from the draw, I hit each one once, then reassess (including threat scan) and reengage as needed.

If I'm aware of only one target, I double-tap it, scan for more, and reengage as needed.
 
I think your regimen is fine. There can always be one more bad guy, but unless you're fighting trained soldiers, I think once they realize they are meeting armed resistance, they will haul butt. There is really no advantage to a BG to get into a real gunfight except to avoid capture.
If you run into a crew wearing body armor and carrying AR's...don't pull out the 2 inch...
 
If you run into a crew wearing body armor and carrying AR's...don't pull out the 2 inch...
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My practice is to take headshots on anything that has already been shot and still needs to be shot again after reassessment.

The general rule I follow is that you shoot COM as many times as you feel is prudent (using the rules in my previous post with low-capacity weapons, winging it with high-caps) then transition to where the nose was while you reassess; if it's still there, shoot it until it stops being there and reassess/threat-scan again.
 
The question would be, if you are serious about self defense as you obviously are, why carry a 5 shot revolver to begin with?

If you are used to fire doubles with your auto, try carrying the 6 shot revolver at least, so as to simplify things in terms of the “software” in your head ( you know you have 2 double taps , not 2 and ½)

Loves revolvers ( recently bought a nice S&W 12-2 Airweigt) but I cant consider them a wise alternative as my main gun, not when you have extremely reliable autos that have 15+1 rounds that are just as easy to carry.

For whatever reason, if a 5-shot is what you have, I’d be cautious about the amount of ammo I’m firing ( not something I’d like to do when defending my life, but well...)
Against a single attacker, two to the chest and one to the head if the head is still in vertical position.
Against two, I’d go for two shots each, and if I think there could be more than just two ( there’s generally one around that is not directly involved in the crime but keeping an eye on things, in case cops show up) I’d go for one shot each until they are down... or until I run out of ammo… :eek:

assuming I've done my job, leaves 3 bad guys down, & if there is a 4th to engage, no one would have heard a hammer drop on an empty cylinder, so even if I happen to be carrying one of the 5 shot revolvers & my revolver is empty, the bad guy doesn't know that, & a command like "freeze or die", or "drop your weapon or die", may be all thats needed, especially if you've already piled up 3 of thier buddies
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PLEASE, don’t count on that. If he has a gun he will shoot, SPECIALLY with 3 guys dead around him.

FerFAL
 
The question would be, if you are serious about self defense as you obviously are, why carry a 5 shot revolver to begin with?
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Yeah, what he said. By the time you alter your dress slightly to accommodate a small firearm, you could probably be carrying a compact real weapon (G23, P2000, lightweight Commander, whatever) in a GOOD HOLSTER.

I think once they realize they are meeting armed resistance, they will haul butt.
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We see training videos every day of people who continue the attack in the face of armed resistance. If they aren't afraid of trying to kill a trained, armed cop, why in the heck are they gonna run from a civilian who may or may not even have the nerve to fire in self-defense or any training or marksmanship skills whatsoever?
 
The 2 autos I carry are a full size witness in 10mm & a CZ compact in 9mm... however both are way heavier than either my airlite 44 special or my airweight 32 H&R J Frame ( which BTW is a 6 shot ), as is my custom 6 shot 44 mag snubbie which I very rarely carry... but as I said, I very rarely put myself in a situation where I might "realistically" encounter a "normal" self defense situation... so the light weight 44 special is my carry gun of choice, it's a 5 shot 3" L Frame, with adjustable sights, & it is the gun I shoot best, of those I carry & is so light that loaded, it's just about the same weight as a loaded magazine alone from the 10 mm... so if there is ever any question of wheather I should "strap one on" wheather it's physical activity or what ever, the light weight revolver is almost always there... I'm also building a custom 50 cal. "special" 5 shot revolver, which I might carry occasionally, so I have some 5 shots, that are both my primary carry pieces, & could be regular use items... ( also have a NAA Mini, which I rarely carry, but it is nice to slip into a pocket if there is just no way to "strap one on"... it is also a 5 shot revolver )

I guess I figured if I trained for 5 shots for both single & multiple targets, I'd still have the 6th if needed if carrying one of my 6 shot revolvers, & plenty left, if carrying one of the autos, but I've been in several "medical emergency situations" in the past, & while I've always had better reactivity than most, I'm counting on one training method so if while in shock of actually having to defend myself, there is only one trained style to fall back on... nothing to have to think about during the limited time of action...

BTW... I've definately attracted the mall commandos with this thread, if this is not considered a "real" weapon here :confused:

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My friend… you are talking about mall commandos yet you are the one with the 44 mag sunb for defense… and the 50 “Special”.. :)

There’s nothing commandoish ( just invented that one) about Glocks or Hi Powers, just to mention a couple of the guns that came to mind when I said that you could have 15+1 rounds or more for almost the same size.

As Nemoaz suggested, if you bother enough to carry, carry something that offers good firepower, but if 5 shooters is your thing, go for it.
I think that your autos are much better defensive tools. Offer more peace of mind if you ever happen to need to defend yourself from more than two attackers.

The weapon on the pic is real enough, also very nice piece, but you can get something that has 3 times more capacity, it’s less bulky (personally, bulk bothers me more than weight) and fires a more powerful round than 44 special..
Since you like 10mm, a Glock 10mm, for example, would fit such description.

FerFAL
 
For many years folks managed to fight off the badguys with just 5 or 6 shot revolvers. Badguys haven't gotten any tougher just because there are hi-cap weapons out there. "Back in the day...." as they say, snubs were THE CCW gun, and in spite of the rhetoric you'd be surprised at how many are still carried as primary weapons. As to your problem, we were taught not to get into a pattern. Don't plan on double taps, or anything else. Plan on shooting what you have to when you have to. If 1 round makes the BG go away, one is enough. The variables are too complicated to say one size fits all.
 
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Magnum,

If you are going to carry a revolver, especially a J snubbie, I suggest you do alot of DA practice. I do mean a lot. It's a very hard gun to master. Once in a IDPA match I ran, I had a J .38 as the supprise gun everyone was going to have to shoot a stage with. Light power reloads. I asked if everyone knew how to shoot one. They all answered yes. Well to make a long story short, well over half of them (we are talking over 20 guys) missed the target! A few even missed the backstop (which pissed me off royaly.)

As for double taps and such, practice several types of fire. Single shots, doubles, emptying the gun. Especialy practice one handed shooting with the little hand cannons.

I practice with both a J 34 kit gun, 2 inch, in .22 lr, and a Smith 640 .357 (with .38s) quite often. And to practice drawing from concealment, I have a ASP red .38 J 'chiefs' that fits my hosters. As you can see I am dedicated to being good with that little gun!

My two carry guns now are a Glock 27 and a Smith 642 .38. If it's possible, I carry the Glock, if for some reason I can't conceal the 27, then the J rides on me and the 27 is in the car console.

Deaf
 
David Armstrong wrote:
"Back in the day...." as they say, snubs were THE CCW gun, and in spite of the rhetoric you'd be surprised at how many are still carried as primary weapons.
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There was a time when a lever action rifle was considered a high capacity, high speed weapon.
So all of a sudden cowboy action shooters that have grown fond of their guns claim that a lever action rifle is more than enough for self defense. WRONG. It’s good, better than nothing, better than a single shot or even a bolt rifle, but not better than a proven semi auto design.

It was more than enough back in the day, when they where the fastest, highest capacity arm a man could buy.
Today, if you choose such a tool for self defense and you try to convince yourself with popular excuses such as “its enough firepower” “ its less threatening and draws less attention”, “I’m not likely to need more gun” you are just kidding yourself and refusing to admit that you had your choice for weapon influenced by romanticism and nostalgia.

There was a time when flintlocks were used for defense and carrying a couple of loaded single shot pistols was enough. You fired your one round, and you had another spare pistol just in case.
Bad guys were similarly armed.
Same happened with revolvers.
There was a time when revolvers were THE handgun of choice, and that’s what most people carried.
Today you are more likely to face an attacker armed with a high capacity pistol, than a revolver.
Badguys haven't gotten any tougher just because there are hi-cap weapons out there.
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No, but they have become more common, more ruthless and have evolved into a greater threat. They’ve perfected their strategies too, in many cases.
“Back in the day”, as you say, only one or two guys came after you during a normal robbery. Now, it’s more likely to be at least 3. And weapons do make a difference.
Over here, Hi Powers are very popular. Sometimes you hear of shootings where 30 or 50 rounds are fired by the bad guys. With 3 or 5 guys attacking, and each carrying a Hi Power that at the very least holds 13 rounds, it’s easy to see how that can happen in just a few seconds.
Only hits count, but a fool firing at you is 3 times more likely to hit you if he has 15 rounds than if he has only 5, just a matter of simple probability math.

FerFAL
 
David Armstrong: "As to your problem, we were taught not to get into a pattern. Don't plan on double taps, or anything else. Plan on shooting what you have to when you have to. If 1 round makes the BG go away, one is enough. The variables are too complicated to say one size fits all."

Agree 100%.

I'd recommend focusing more on accuracy than a default double-tap, controlled pair, or "hammer" drill. You've only got 5 (or 6) shots. Be sure they count. You might have to take an extra fraction of time to ensure that.

A single speedloader really doesn't take up much room in a pocket or carrier...just something to think about.
 
BTW... I've definately attracted the mall commandos with this thread, if this is not considered a "real" weapon here
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Mall commando, huh? Been called a pig, jackbooted thug, or minion of the Uncle or whatever... but never mall commando. Thanks, I guess. Sounds like a promotion. :)

Back to the five shooters, as they said in Lethal Weapon "lots of old timers carry those." Hopefully, the old timers have been promoted to chief and won't be anywhere near any real criminals without plenty of other agents or officers present.

You think you're the only one who has ever been tempted to carry a lighter firearm? I've carried an airweight 38, a G27, and a P2000sk for years at a time in the past. But since I took a position that requires quarterly qualifications under stress (from the holster, 4 rounds in 6 seconds at 15 yards-- stuff like that), it became clear to me that I just don't shoot as well enough with a snubby or a subcompact weapon. Making a headshot, if necessary, is just far more of a challenge with a snubby. I don't know if you've ever been in any life threatening situations, but the first few times you probably will have issues with stress responses. It's hard to control your own adrenalin. The adrenalin doesn't do much for your accuracy.

Five shots is JUST five shots. It might be enough. It PROBABLY will be enough, but....I'm not willing to take the chance. See, in real shooting situations, the silhouettes move. They run and jump. The shoot back. And they don't necessarily fall the first time you shoot them. Sometimes, the are wearing body armor. Five shots? Not me.

I also learned that I can't just tuck a 38 or subcompact auto under my t shirt anyway. I wear thicker shirts, or a coverup shirt, or jacket, whatever. By the time I do that, I can just as easily carry my duty weapon, the gun with which I'm most familiar and with which I shoot 30 or 40 points higher on the qual course. So that's what I do.

I don't carry on my ankle so that really isn't an issue for me.

Maybe I'm just paranoid. But there seems to be a lot more kooks or spontaneous jihad types walking through our malls and schools shooting people. In the most highly unlikely chance that I'm near something like that, I'd sure as hell want something more than a 5 shooter. Wasn't the guy at the Utah mall carrying a five shooter? I'm not sure, but I do think I remember that he was out of ammo and basically at the mercy of the killer. Luckily, that killer died quickly. Not all of them do.

If you like your snubbies or even an old single action, so be it. Being armed is better than being unarmed. But I won't choose a five shooter for myself.
 
I honestly wasn't trying to offend anyone... just felt a bit offended that the gun I carry 90% of the time ( & you all know now what I have available to me ), was blown off as "not a real weapon"

... I have my own rifle & pistol shooting range, & do practice shooting acurately, I used my 357 Magnum (6 shot) revolver to range qualify with for my CCW license ( got a perfect score BTW with 2 reloads )... still the 44 special with adjustable rear sight, & fiber optic front sight is the weapon I would carry before almost any other...

...I've been doing the "normal" belt & holster research, but still have more issues with a guns weight, that it's size within reason... I actually went into the toy store ( the day I bought my Witness 10mm ) with the intent of buying my 1st plastic gun... the Glock was my 1st choice... but I found the grip fit ( for me ) was so horrible, that I just couldn't make myself buy one... yes the Witness is heavier, but it fits my hand like a glove...

... so now for the 2nd time I've posted on this thread, primarily defending my choice of carry weapon, rather than disussing the training techniques of which I started the thread about in the 1st place... I'm going to steer it back in the right direction again... ( thanks to those that did post in response to my questions )....

so the general concensus seems to be to not train in any one pattern... I'm curious the expirience levels of those who recommend that ( I'm not doubting you guys, just trying to return this back to training questions, not about my choice of weapon )...my expirience ( & what is generally taught ), is that under stress we don't think as clearly or remember details as well, & rely more on muscle memory & engrained memory... my thoughts along those lines was, I can train all I want on the acurate use of my weapon, but when someone shoots back, most of your training goes out the window, & you do what comes "naturally"

... shortly after I joined this forum, I posted a humorous post in which I had to shoot an animal in "self defense"... it happened while I was deer hunting, & while I won't go into the long story,even though it was funny, I had to draw my handgun & shoot, even though I had a rifle with ( I had allowed the animal to get too close to use the rifle, in disbelief that I was actually going to have to shoot it ) & it was at that point instinct, not thought about the situation that was used to shoot the animal... it happened too fast, & came unexpectedly... just like most would tell you bad guy attacks happen... but truth be told, we can try not to put ourselves in situations where bad guy attacks happen, & I do that already... but there is always that once, where it comes when you least expect it, that IMO, you need that instictual training

... I'm hoping that if I train around 5 shots,that I'll be able to make the best use of my 1st 5 shots... if I'm carrying a 5 shot revolver, I'm fine, if I'm carrying the 10mm all the better... thats really all I'm after here, is how to train to best use my 1st 5 shots
 
Rather than to into a possible confrontation with a preconceived plan, go with the mindset that you will be doing what is necessary. That means if you are going to carry a 5 shot revolver, you should already be proficient with speed loaders or speed strips. It also means that you need to know the limitations of the weapon, and adjust your possible tactics with those limitations in mind.
 
I carry a S&W 642 more often than anything else..... am I not serious about self-defense?

Many of the most "serious" guys I know carry a J-frame. They are convenient and they work.

One of my students who is rather serious about training shot over 1400 rnds out of his J-frame (actually 2 that he was switching in and out) in a class last summer.

enough on that.....
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As David noted, shoot because you have a threat, stop shooting when the threat ends... don't get into patterns of shots. In CFS, after the first 10 minutes, students shoot 2 OR 3 rounds for each standard range command to fire unless we are controlling number of rounds for a specific drill. If a student shoots 2 all the time, we remind them to mix it up (same for 3). This breaks the tendency to start developing a pattern of the number of shots you train to shoot. Visualizing a threat during each string of fire (and the end of the threat) is part of the program.

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The other training fallacy that exists is that you will be dealing with "multiple threats at one time"... In the overwhelming majority of multiple threat incidents, you will focus intently on one threat before realizing/acknowledging any other. The Square Range DRill/IDPA stage that has you cognitively dealing with multiple threats simultaneously is probably not reflecting what would happen in a real situation. It would be nice in some ways if we could multi-task like that, but it has been historically much more important to human survival to focus intently on the ONE thing that was a danger (hence orienting towards the threat, tunnel vision, bringing our hands to our eyeline towards the threat, etc....).

Stick to varied strings of fire and engage each target/threat separately in your training and you'll be preparing in a way that is likely to be consistent with a real world threat, single or multiple....

-RJP
 
In the overwhelming majority of multiple threat incidents, you will focus intently on one threat before realizing/acknowledging any other. The Square Range DRill/IDPA stage that has you cognitively dealing with multiple threats simultaneously is probably not reflecting what would happen in a real situation.
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Good post & good point.

Last year sometime, Concealed Carry Magazine featured a first-person account of a man who took five home invaders at gun point. He was dealing with two people and did not realize there were so many others when he started! But by the time the activity was over, he had five guys proned out on the ground in front of him.

pax
 
There was a time when a lever action rifle was considered a high capacity, high speed weapon.
So all of a sudden cowboy action shooters that have grown fond of their guns claim that a lever action rifle is more than enough for self defense. WRONG. It’s good, better than nothing, better than a single shot or even a bolt rifle, but not better than a proven semi auto design.
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You are confusing two things, "good enough" and "better than." And yes, a lever action is quite adequate for self defense. In fact, Jeff Cooper recommended it as a pretty good choice. Just because something better comes along doesn't mean the older stuff is suddenly not going to work.
No, but they have become more common, more ruthless and have evolved into a greater threat.
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That is certainly open to debate when discussing the U.S., and a lot of debate at that.
“Back in the day”, as you say, only one or two guys came after you during a normal robbery. Now, it’s more likely to be at least 3.
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Sorry, but the data on robberies does not reflect that here.
With 3 or 5 guys attacking, and each carrying a Hi Power....
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If 3 or 5 guys are attacking, even if they only have revolvers, your making it through OK is not going be based on how many rounds you have in your gun.
 
With multiple adversaries it's "One shot per target, repeat as needed."

If you spend time trying to "double tap" you will be soaking up bullets from the one(s) you didn't shoot. I favor revolvers for off duty carry, or low capacity autoloaders like the 1911 or Kahr PM9. I spend a lot of time practicing multiple targets. Shooting and moving is very relevant here.

In the words of Clint Smith, "If you aren't shooting you should be moving. If you aren't moving you should be reloading. If you aren't reloading you should be communicating." That's a lot to do in a life or death encounter. I forgot the communicating part last time.

Biker
 
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