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5.56 Powder Question
- Thread starter Drm50
- Start date
reynolds357
New member
It's available, but from what I see it's not any cheaper than anything except Vhitavuri, Norma, and IMR Enduring line.TAC is cheap and available, works great with 69 and 77 SMK's out to 600 yards
IMR4895 works well for me in 223, Works Well in .308 works well in 30-06. It may not be the absolute best , but it gets the Job done.Up front I’ve loaded for close to 60 yrs. Loaded 223 since it came out , for bolt actions. Used BC-L2 / 55gr bullets. Now I have broke down and bought AR-15.
I want to load GI dupe for 55gr FMJs. What is the most economical powder to do this? I’ve not used many of the powders on market today. I’m running out of stash. I’m not wanting to use up my BC-L2 for AR loads. Have lots of IMR powders but not the best for 5.56 and POA to tap down in case.
Bart B is absolutely correct I never had any great luck with ball powders at all as far as accuracy, and in bigger cases like 30-06 you really need a magnum primers to ignites those the best.
I have several jugs of 846, 844 just sitting on the shelf now to be used for plinking purposes
It is a good thing that he is looking for a G.I. 55fmj duplication load, not the most "accurate" load.Ball powders are seldom, if ever, used in rifle competition to win and set records.
Wouldn't the G.I. duplication load use Midwest Powders WC844? Isn't that the supplus powder obtained by pulling down G.I. 5.56/55fmj loads?
dahermit,It is a good thing that he is looking for a G.I. 55fmj duplication load, not the most "accurate" load.
Wouldn't the G.I. duplication load use Midwest Powders WC844? Isn't that the supplus powder obtained by pulling down G.I. 5.56/55fmj loads?
They military use to use WC844 for 556 Now I dont know if it was used both in the XM193 and the M855 then switched over to the H335 in M855A1 round around 2010ish. I can tell you that around this Time I started seeing the WC844 and the WC846 start to dry up.
I have some 8lbs jugs of the 844 and it varies alot but it does burn pretty clean, But you probably arent going to find the 844 anymore the lots I have are over 12 years old
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stagpanther
New member
In general or specifically for .308/5.56?Ball powders are seldom, if ever, used in rifle competition to win and set records.
One of the problems with ball powders in match loads has been poorer temperature stability than some of the sticks have and less consistent ignition. The new StaBall 6.5 and other stabilized formulations with newer, easier-to-ignite deterrent chemistries are starting to appear, so match load performance may well be improving.
As I mentioned before, H335 is WC844. The only difference is that H335 is canister grade WC844 rather than the bulk grade surplus. The difference is a canister grade burn rate is more tightly controlled from lot to lot than a bulk grade burn rate is. The control is accomplished by making a bulk lot, measuring the burn rate, then adjusting it by adding some portion of a faster or slower held-back past bulk lot of the same powder type and blending it in (called milling) to increase or decrease the new bulk lot's burn rate, whichever is needed to adjust that lot.
The surplus bulk WC 844, being unmilled, will have more burn rate variation from one lot to the next than the canister grade version of the powder does. The military ammo maker doesn't care about that because he tests loads in a pressure and velocity test barrel and adjusts the final load to meet pressure and velocity and gas port pressure specs simultaneously. If he can't find a load that does all three with that lot of powder, the lot is disqualified for the load being developed, and a different lot is tried. A disqualified lot is either used in something else or is put up for sale as surplus. From there, it either winds up in the hands of the surplus powder dealers, or it is bought by Hodgdon, who sends it out for testing and milling to become canister-grade powder.
The reason canister and bulk grades are separate purchase options is the former's extra testing and milling steps make it more expensive. That expense is necessary for a powder that is to be loaded from a recipe in a databook, as the usual -10% to max load range is not adequate to cover the variation in some lots of bulk powder. In one extreme case I am aware of, a bulk lot of WC846 was 30% faster than the target burn rate (less than half that much variation is more common).
So, to find load data for a new lot of bulk-grade powder requires more care and can be pretty inconvenient to do without a pressure gun, and amateurs have only begun getting into that approach with the Pressure Trace. Also, even if the amateur has the pressure test set up, the fact that bulk powder burn rate varies means that barrel time will change, and load tuning steps will have to be repeated for a new bulk lot that differs enough from the last one. Most handloaders don't want to go through that.
One of the lessons here is that if your surplus powder is not taken from pulldowns or has been tested by the supplier, it may never have qualified for the cartridge you want to use it in, so caveat emptor.
dahermit said:Wouldn't the G.I. duplication load use Midwest Powders WC844? Isn't that the supplus powder obtained by pulling down G.I. 5.56/55fmj loads?
As I mentioned before, H335 is WC844. The only difference is that H335 is canister grade WC844 rather than the bulk grade surplus. The difference is a canister grade burn rate is more tightly controlled from lot to lot than a bulk grade burn rate is. The control is accomplished by making a bulk lot, measuring the burn rate, then adjusting it by adding some portion of a faster or slower held-back past bulk lot of the same powder type and blending it in (called milling) to increase or decrease the new bulk lot's burn rate, whichever is needed to adjust that lot.
The surplus bulk WC 844, being unmilled, will have more burn rate variation from one lot to the next than the canister grade version of the powder does. The military ammo maker doesn't care about that because he tests loads in a pressure and velocity test barrel and adjusts the final load to meet pressure and velocity and gas port pressure specs simultaneously. If he can't find a load that does all three with that lot of powder, the lot is disqualified for the load being developed, and a different lot is tried. A disqualified lot is either used in something else or is put up for sale as surplus. From there, it either winds up in the hands of the surplus powder dealers, or it is bought by Hodgdon, who sends it out for testing and milling to become canister-grade powder.
The reason canister and bulk grades are separate purchase options is the former's extra testing and milling steps make it more expensive. That expense is necessary for a powder that is to be loaded from a recipe in a databook, as the usual -10% to max load range is not adequate to cover the variation in some lots of bulk powder. In one extreme case I am aware of, a bulk lot of WC846 was 30% faster than the target burn rate (less than half that much variation is more common).
So, to find load data for a new lot of bulk-grade powder requires more care and can be pretty inconvenient to do without a pressure gun, and amateurs have only begun getting into that approach with the Pressure Trace. Also, even if the amateur has the pressure test set up, the fact that bulk powder burn rate varies means that barrel time will change, and load tuning steps will have to be repeated for a new bulk lot that differs enough from the last one. Most handloaders don't want to go through that.
One of the lessons here is that if your surplus powder is not taken from pulldowns or has been tested by the supplier, it may never have qualified for the cartridge you want to use it in, so caveat emptor.
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stagpanther
New member
Very interesting--thanks for that.
Good luck getting NATO velocities!
In a well set up rifle, NATO ammo clears 3100fps in a 16 inch barrel with no port or chamber pressure signs on the brass.
If your rifle is over gassed with a wicked strong extractor you will get swipes and swirling scrapes.
For general plinking, there is absolutely no reason to run your rifle on the ragged edge.
In this time
Primers are 10 cents
Bullets are 11 cents
Powder is. 12.5 cents
The total is 33.5 cents per round. (If you exclude consumable fee's such as tumbling media, lube, wear and tear on trimming tools, personal time & testing ammo and velocity et. )
That is if your brass was free
I have seen quality 5.56 ammo at Bi-Mart stores for 40 cents per round in the last month or two.
For the time it takes to load up blaster ammo, the 40 cents seems like a bargain...
On the other hand, If you must, and you want the velocity,
AA2015 will get you close, so will 26.1 grains of H4895 with a CCI #41 primer. Benchmark running way up there with the same #41 primer will also. (Look for 3,000fps) Unlikely to see 3100fps though.
All 3 of those powders will give you excellent accuracy in the nose bleed section. You will wish you stuck a fancier bullet on top though.
For blasting i use H335, AA2230 & Xterminator because they are available and cheap.
In a well set up rifle, NATO ammo clears 3100fps in a 16 inch barrel with no port or chamber pressure signs on the brass.
If your rifle is over gassed with a wicked strong extractor you will get swipes and swirling scrapes.
For general plinking, there is absolutely no reason to run your rifle on the ragged edge.
In this time
Primers are 10 cents
Bullets are 11 cents
Powder is. 12.5 cents
The total is 33.5 cents per round. (If you exclude consumable fee's such as tumbling media, lube, wear and tear on trimming tools, personal time & testing ammo and velocity et. )
That is if your brass was free
I have seen quality 5.56 ammo at Bi-Mart stores for 40 cents per round in the last month or two.
For the time it takes to load up blaster ammo, the 40 cents seems like a bargain...
On the other hand, If you must, and you want the velocity,
AA2015 will get you close, so will 26.1 grains of H4895 with a CCI #41 primer. Benchmark running way up there with the same #41 primer will also. (Look for 3,000fps) Unlikely to see 3100fps though.
All 3 of those powders will give you excellent accuracy in the nose bleed section. You will wish you stuck a fancier bullet on top though.
For blasting i use H335, AA2230 & Xterminator because they are available and cheap.
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603Country
New member
I use H335 for 40, 55, 63, 64, and 65 grain bullets. Works great in the Bolt gun and AR.
When and where did you see 223 ammo for $.40/round? I think you're having a flashback to a couple years ago.Good luck getting NATO velocities!
In a well set up rifle, NATO ammo clears 3100fps in a 16 inch barrel with no port or chamber pressure signs on the brass.
If your rifle is over gassed with a wicked strong extractor you will get swipes and swirling scrapes.
For general plinking, there is absolutely no reason to run your rifle on the ragged edge.
In this time
Primers are 10 cents
Bullets are 11 cents
Powder is. 12.5 cents
The total is 33.5 cents per round. (If you exclude consumable fee's such as tumbling media, lube, wear and tear on trimming tools, personal time & testing ammo and velocity et. )
That is if your brass was free
I have seen quality 5.56 ammo at Bi-Mart stores for 40 cents per round in the last month or two.
For the time it takes to load up blaster ammo, the 40 cents seems like a bargain...
On the other hand, If you must, and you want the velocity,
AA2015 will get you close, so will 26.1 grains of H4895 with a CCI #41 primer. Benchmark running way up there with the same #41 primer will also. (Look for 3,000fps) Unlikely to see 3100fps though.
All 3 of those powders will give you excellent accuracy in the nose bleed section. You will wish you stuck a fancier bullet on top though.
For blasting i use H335, AA2230 & Xterminator because they are available and cheap.
I shop BiMart and the cheapest I've seen it was $12/20. ($.60/round).
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Two weeks ago I got 1K of PMC 55 FMJ for $469. Bro tried to order couple hours later and it was gone. I’m selling out most of my long guns due to health. I had a nice selection of .224 cal varmit rifles. Only have a Ruger #3 in 223 and Rem 722 in 222 left- except for new AR.
I’ve got thousands of bullets mostly 50-55gr, few 35-45 and nothing heavy. I’ve never had accuracy problem with BL-C2, used it since 60s in 222.
The bulk of 22 bullets I have are not cannalured. I’m buying the Lee collet die to enable me to shoot these in the AR. I’ve got life time supply of SRPs, LRPs & LPPs. Short on SPPs. Bought wholesale when I was in business in 80s. I want to play a bit with the AR and shoot up some of the bullets I’ve got. I’m not interested in match shooting or heavy bullets. The old m16 GI load was tagged at 3250 with 55gr FMJ. I’ll be dealing with penny primers,
.07 to .08 bullets and rafts of free 1x brass. Ball powder is a lot easier to load than IMR in small cases. That’s why I’m shopping for cheap powders. I figured the AR cult that burns 100s of rounds would know. So I’m going to have to buy some powder. I’ve got IMR and pistol powder out the kazoo. 1lb of BL-C2 left.
I’ve got thousands of bullets mostly 50-55gr, few 35-45 and nothing heavy. I’ve never had accuracy problem with BL-C2, used it since 60s in 222.
The bulk of 22 bullets I have are not cannalured. I’m buying the Lee collet die to enable me to shoot these in the AR. I’ve got life time supply of SRPs, LRPs & LPPs. Short on SPPs. Bought wholesale when I was in business in 80s. I want to play a bit with the AR and shoot up some of the bullets I’ve got. I’m not interested in match shooting or heavy bullets. The old m16 GI load was tagged at 3250 with 55gr FMJ. I’ll be dealing with penny primers,
.07 to .08 bullets and rafts of free 1x brass. Ball powder is a lot easier to load than IMR in small cases. That’s why I’m shopping for cheap powders. I figured the AR cult that burns 100s of rounds would know. So I’m going to have to buy some powder. I’ve got IMR and pistol powder out the kazoo. 1lb of BL-C2 left.
Shoot.....When and where did you see 223 ammo for $.40/round? I think you're having a flashback to a couple years ago.
I shop BiMart and the cheapest I've seen it was $12/20. ($.60/round).
Am i losing my marbles already...
I doubt i have seen them for cheaper than you have!
Thanks for correcting me during a flash back.
The OP asked "What is the most economical powder to do this".
Current availability is not great. Normally, Milsurp Wc 844 would be the easy choice (I buy this stuff in multiple 8 lb jug orders). I have not seen any milsurp WC 844 available since the shortage started.
Next best solution is probably one or more 8lb jugs of something that will give close to full velocity. Not much in the way of 8lb jugs out there, but I did see some BLC2 at Midsouth (~$240 for 8 lbs, not including shipping).
If you are willing to play around and possibly accept slightly less velocity, RedEye Reloading has a Milsurp MP-380 extruded powder that looks to be just a little faster than H335. Cost is $220 for an 8lb jug with shipping and Hazmat included.
Current availability is not great. Normally, Milsurp Wc 844 would be the easy choice (I buy this stuff in multiple 8 lb jug orders). I have not seen any milsurp WC 844 available since the shortage started.
Next best solution is probably one or more 8lb jugs of something that will give close to full velocity. Not much in the way of 8lb jugs out there, but I did see some BLC2 at Midsouth (~$240 for 8 lbs, not including shipping).
If you are willing to play around and possibly accept slightly less velocity, RedEye Reloading has a Milsurp MP-380 extruded powder that looks to be just a little faster than H335. Cost is $220 for an 8lb jug with shipping and Hazmat included.
603Country
New member
That’s a good point, that AA2230 is good behind the 65 gr Sierra GK. It worked great for me, but I couldn’t get more. I settled on the H335 finally. Works great in the 223 and the Grendel.
Drm50 said:I’m buying the Lee collet die to enable me to shoot these in the AR.
The Lee Collet Die is a neck-size-only die. Neck sizing is generally considered a bad idea for self-loaders. The odds of getting a slamfire or a failure to feet increase considerably. However, the Lee die produces neck runout that is as low as it gets, so what a number of us do is use it for the case neck and use a Redding Body Die for the case body (it doesn't touch the neck) to get a shoulder a couple of thousandths (some use more) shorter than as-ejected. It's two-step resizing but makes for very concentric cases. There is, at a higher cost, a small-base version of the Redding die available, should your AR turn out to be one of the few that require small-base resizing to feed reliably (most don't).