45acp vs 40S&W

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in a shooting session in my backyard several friends gathered with the following.
colt .45 5" barrel
colt commander .45 3" barrel
S&W 4006 .40 4" barrel
Astra A75 .40 3" barrel
S&W Centenial 38 special 2" barrel
Ruger speed six .357 mag 2.5" barrel
S&W 681 .357 4" inch barrel
Kahr K9 9mm 3" barrel
Browning highpower 9mm 5" barrel
we fired MANY MANY boxes of ammo thru my Pact II chrono and into water jugs and test dummies made of old wet newsprint and clothes. the end result helped me make my choices of firearms i carry and use to this day.
conclusions
1. .45 ammo really needs the long barrel. its expansion ratio needs the extra inch or two to really rock.
2. compact .45's suffer from slow FPS and lack of expansion in most mediums
3. .40's and 9mm's lose very little from 5",4" to 3" barrels.compact gun bullet speeds remain within 40 to 50 FPS of what a full size gun will do.
4. .40's expand and cut a wider PWC than most 9mm's even when comparing a full size 9mm to a sub compact .40
5. .357's lose velocity in snub barrel guns as well but muzzle flip and flash increase geometrically form 4" barrel to 2" barrels. so much so that most of us found full house loads hard to control and to hit consistantly with. skill with .357 or . 38 +p snubbie takes much PRACTICE.
6. most of us concluded that for carry purposes a compact 9mm with high performance +P ammo or a .40 S&W compact was more comfortable to carry, easier to shoot well and offered more practical power than an under preforming .45 compact or an overloade .357 snubbie.
UPSHOT
if you can carry a full size gun 4" or 5" i would go with a .45 choice of gun is your preference. if you find a compact more comfortable a .40 S&W offers hard hitting power equal to the best .45 loads in a package that rivals the smallest 9mm's. if you are recoil sensitive and still like a compact. a hot loaded 9mm compact may be your answer.

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Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what is for lunch.
Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the outcome of the vote.
Let he that hath no sword sell his garment and buy one.--And they said. Lord here are two swords. And he said unto them. That is not enough. Luke 22-36,38
They all hold swords, being expert in war: every man hath his sword upon his thigh because of fear in the night. Song of Solomon 3-8
 
Dwight: Are you sure that "You really have to redesign the gun to handle the 357 SIG from the ground up"? I thought that the SIG P229 was originally designed around the .40 S&W, which required the milled versus stamped slide and other changes to the P228. Also, despite the constant hub-bub about exploding Glocks, I haven't heard of any kaBooms in a .357 SIG Glock.

FUD: I think that the FBI Hostage Rescue Team was using 9mm Browning Hi-Powers before they adopted 1911-style pistols in .45 ACP.

Personally, I have a hard time comparing .40 and .45 because I haven't shot both cartridges from the same "platform". My .40s are Glocks and my .45s are 1911-type pistols, so the pistols differ so much that I can't tell how much of the difference is due to the chambering. I like them both, which I suppose makes me some sort of pervert. :D
 
It's interesting to watch police agencies search for a "magic bullet" (caliber). Many have gone form 9mm to .40, and some to .45, with big incentives from gunmakers to switch. They think it will improve the stopping power for their officers, when what they really need is better training. I was astonished to find out that a Sheriff friend in LA gets 30, yes THIRTY, rounds from the dept a month for practice and qualification. 30! I don't care what "magic" gun they put in LEO's hands, if they don't practice more than that, the caliber ain't gonna make a hoot of difference.

As a well-known trainer/writer/cop friend told me "The high-speed killers from GSG9, SEB, SEALS, etc carry 9mm's, and get it done. How can you argue?" Carry what you shoot best, and learn to shoot it REALLY well. That will save your bacon.

(Btw, I shoot 9, .40, and .45, but am getting rid of the .40's)
 
To clarify the Glock questions:

It is very simple. All Glocks have been designed in "mm" loads. (10mm and 9mm). In order to make the Glock fit the "caliber" loads like the .45 and .40, they had to modify the feed ramp. In modifying the feed ramp, especially in the .40, they had to lead it up into the chamber. Glocks are very reliable because of this. But, they have unsupported chambers in the "caliber" loadings and opposed to the "mm" loading like th 10mm and the 9mm.
Therefore 9mm and 10mm Glocks are fully supported in the chamber and the .40 is very unsupported (as well as being a high pressure round). The .40 is so very unsupported in the chamber because they took a 9mm gun and tried to stuff a .40 caliber setup into it, like many other gun makers are also guilty of doing (it ain't just Glocks that blow up!). The Glock .45 is also unsupported in the chamber, but it is less of an issue because it is a low pressure round. That is why you mainly hear about the .40 caliber Glocks having case failure (usually only in bad reloads though).


Oh, and I forgot the Glocks chambered for the mighty .357 Sig. The .357 auto Glock has a FULLY SUPPORTED CHAMBER. due to the shape of the cartridge, the chamber can be fully supported and it feeds great.

To answer the original question:
Anyone who really researches the topic will tell you to get a .357 Sig. It really is a better cartridge, especially if you are getting a Glock (because the .357 has the fully supported chamber). Read this thread if you want a comparison of the cartridges:
http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/Forum15/HTML/000706.html



The .45 is not even an issue unless you are shooting out of a 5 or 6 inch barrel. Otherwise, the .45 cannot keep up ballistically if shot out of a sub 5 inch barrel. The .40 is better, and the .357 is even better than that.


On that note, I shoot pretty damn well with a 9mm, and hitting the mark under ALL circumstances like one handed, laying down, left handed, sideways, under cover, upside down, etc (combat is not like the range) with a 9mm is much better than missing with a .40. If you look at the numbers, the .40 is BARELY better than a 9mm anyway in expansion, penetration and energy. Read this thread for that scoop:
http://glocktalk.com/docs/gtubb/Forum15/HTML/000662.html


[This message has been edited by CassandraComplex (edited February 18, 2000).]
 
Like many others have said, I don't think you can beat the .45acp for shear destrucion, but it needs all 5". The .40 offers close to .45 performance in a much smaller package. It depends on what size gun you're comfortable carrying. If energy is your thing, then the .357sig has it, but tissue destruction wise, it doesn't offer anything much more than a good 147gr. 9mm. Too many studies have shown that energy from a handgun doesn't relate to increased tissue disruption. It may add somewhat to the psychological reaction of being hit, but the jury is still out. Given that a 155gr .40 offers similar energy output plus a larger permanent cavity, I would prefer the .40 over the .357sig as a personal defense round. The .357sig might have an edge in barrier penetration, which could help with LEO type usage, but you give up some permanent cavity disruption. With the advent of the Expanding Full Metal Jacket, the .357sig may take a permanent back seat to the .40 after all.
 
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