My opinion on your question of .45ACP or 10mm on a gator is that both with get the job done very effectively but you'll definitely get more penetration from the 10mm. I don't notice more recoil in the 10mm than the .45ACP, but the 10mm has much more flash from the muzzle. If you already have a .45ACP but have some money burning a hole in your pocket, get a 10mm anyway. It's my favorite caliber......Dan in GA
.45ACP or 10mm
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Having owned and shot both (still have a glock29 that is my all-time favorite) I can say that I don't notice more recoil from the 10mm than the .45. IMO it pushes straight back more while the .45 wants to torque up and away more. I handle the straight back type of recoil better, but that's just my preference. I also own a glock22 and I think that the recoil on the 22 is harder to handle than the 10mm because of the same reasons, it wants to torque up and to the left while the 10mm just comes straight back.
I don't want to start a flame war between two members but this is sort of important to me and it could be a matter of life and death (as was once almost the case). Can somebody clear this up ... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WalterGAII: ... The alligator hunters whom I know did all right against gators with a plain ol' 22 lr ... [/quote]and <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by freezin1: Get a high power rifle 
I have hunted Gators and they have THICK skins ...[/quote]... If a .22LR will do the job, then I'm better off with my S&W659 -- it holds 15 rounds (one more than my P14-45) and I can shoot the 9mm much better than I can the .45ACP (better to hit him with a dozen 9mm's than a handful of .45's because I'm going to miss with the rest). On the other hand, if the 9mm won't do much against the gator's tough hide, then maybe I'm better off with the .45ACP or the 10mm like I was originally thinking (or even a .400Cor-Bon). Advice? Suggestions?
FUD
[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 20, 2000).]
I have hunted Gators and they have THICK skins ...[/quote]... If a .22LR will do the job, then I'm better off with my S&W659 -- it holds 15 rounds (one more than my P14-45) and I can shoot the 9mm much better than I can the .45ACP (better to hit him with a dozen 9mm's than a handful of .45's because I'm going to miss with the rest). On the other hand, if the 9mm won't do much against the gator's tough hide, then maybe I'm better off with the .45ACP or the 10mm like I was originally thinking (or even a .400Cor-Bon). Advice? Suggestions?FUD
[This message has been edited by FUD (edited June 20, 2000).]
FUD,
Being the proud Daddy of my 1 1/2 year old daughter I guess I know how seriously you are thinking about the protection for your family. I know I'm repeating myself, but if I was in your circumstances I wouldn't mess around with a handgun against a gator in any caliber. You're better off with a shotgun loaded with buckshot--better aiming, a little more margin for error and extremely more devastating...
Again I ask, OR are you only thinking about what gun/caliber you will be carrying on you?
Being the proud Daddy of my 1 1/2 year old daughter I guess I know how seriously you are thinking about the protection for your family. I know I'm repeating myself, but if I was in your circumstances I wouldn't mess around with a handgun against a gator in any caliber. You're better off with a shotgun loaded with buckshot--better aiming, a little more margin for error and extremely more devastating...
Again I ask, OR are you only thinking about what gun/caliber you will be carrying on you?
Hydejam, I'm more thinking about what I can have under my shirt when I'm outside with the little one (who, by the way, just turned 20 months yesterday). I have a .308 rifle but I not going to be carrying that around with me in the backyard. If I keep the rifle/shotgun hidden inside the backdoor (out of sight of the neighbors), then in the amount of time it takes me to run and get the rifle, I could have picked up the little one and run into the house for safety as well. What I'm thinking about is something like what happened before ... out of nowhere and without warning, an alligator appeared in our backyard. I draw my gun (.22LR? 9mm? 10mm? .45ACP?) and take my child inside the house. If the gator starts is within 7-10 yards of us and is heading directly toward us (like it did last time), then I would open fire. Again, the gun is not necessarily to kill him but to stop him from attacking us. Once inside the house, all of us are better protected and I would call the police and rely on a rifle for protection. The handgun is just to have something on me to buy me time to get everyone safely into the house.
Bullwinkle
New member
FUD, FWIW I'd go with the Glock 29 for the following reason...
More concealable than the P-14,
More powerful than 45,
More ammo choices/availability than the bottleneck cartridge alternatives for the 45,
Better reliability than a conversion gun is likely to be (you are looking for a PDW here not a project play gun),
No rust worries for Florida,
Most 10mm PDW ammo has a reputation for "over penetration" which is good for your situation.
Of course the 29 is my newest and current favorite so I'm obvously biased.
Also, I dont know how big your yard is but the 10mm shoots flater than the 45. This is not usually an issue in typical PDW scenarios because typically if you are far enough off for a bullet to drop significantly you should be running instead of shooting. But if a gator is after your kid "run away" is not a option.
Also again, have you considered a dog. The terrier breeds seem particularly aware and confrontational of other animals and are not usually smart enough so stay away from things that can kill then.
What are the legal ramifications of shooting a croc? On TV I'm always seeing these guys go to great lengths to catch and release them. I always figured they had a good reason for not just shotgunning them and saving the trouble.
[This message has been edited by Bullwinkle (edited June 20, 2000).]
More concealable than the P-14,
More powerful than 45,
More ammo choices/availability than the bottleneck cartridge alternatives for the 45,
Better reliability than a conversion gun is likely to be (you are looking for a PDW here not a project play gun),
No rust worries for Florida,
Most 10mm PDW ammo has a reputation for "over penetration" which is good for your situation.
Of course the 29 is my newest and current favorite so I'm obvously biased.
Also, I dont know how big your yard is but the 10mm shoots flater than the 45. This is not usually an issue in typical PDW scenarios because typically if you are far enough off for a bullet to drop significantly you should be running instead of shooting. But if a gator is after your kid "run away" is not a option.
Also again, have you considered a dog. The terrier breeds seem particularly aware and confrontational of other animals and are not usually smart enough so stay away from things that can kill then.
What are the legal ramifications of shooting a croc? On TV I'm always seeing these guys go to great lengths to catch and release them. I always figured they had a good reason for not just shotgunning them and saving the trouble.
[This message has been edited by Bullwinkle (edited June 20, 2000).]
.45ACP will more than do a number on a crock. If it's really bugging you, buy proload 230 +P and I don't think your gonna have any problems.
Unless you just want another gun, then I'd go either .44Mag revolver or Glock 20 in 10mm (15rnd hi cap mags availible).
But .45ACP will do the job.
Unless you just want another gun, then I'd go either .44Mag revolver or Glock 20 in 10mm (15rnd hi cap mags availible).
But .45ACP will do the job.
Don't even bother with the 400 corbon in a double stack gun. ALso the 10mm is more powerfull than the 400 corbon by about 150 fps if you reload and if you don't you can still buy 10mm ammo up to 200 grains where the 400 tops out at 165. I have a 400 corbon barrel in my sig 220 and its ok but my glock 20 is better.
PAT
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I intend to go into harms way.
PAT
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I intend to go into harms way.
10mm is the way to go. With a few options - is it possible to legally
buy steel core ammo? It's penetration is really evil, and then even a
9mm will do. We had a crock-on-flight scene a few years back here, and
local police resorted to steel core ammo. The crock (or alligator)
apparently didn't make it very far. And our local police only has 9mm.
buy steel core ammo? It's penetration is really evil, and then even a
9mm will do. We had a crock-on-flight scene a few years back here, and
local police resorted to steel core ammo. The crock (or alligator)
apparently didn't make it very far. And our local police only has 9mm.
CassandraComplex
New member
10mm wins in every way. 10mm is a true magnum class round. And, it is shot from a STOCK gun (Glock for example), which can hold 15+1 rounds and be extremely reliable. You can play with wildcat cartridges if you want and modify your gun and deal with possible reliability and longevity problems, or you can just shoot a stock Glock 20 and have the most powerful stock autopistol in the world with 15+1 rounds of magnum class 10mm.
If you want supreme hitting power, then carry a light bullet for shallow penetration and massive energy dump (135-155gr bullets at hot velocities) that makes the proven .357 Magnum look tame. If you want deep penetration, go with the heavier bullet and you get extreme penetration.
Ps- Accordong to some who do it, you can handload a 10mm to 135gr@1800 fps and almost 1000 ft-lbs of KE and still be within pressure limits. Most people, especially factories, just don't load 10mm to it's potential because people are too wimpy and they get upset about the recoil. The .40 Super is new and trying to make it's mark, so they are loading it as hot as possible. It has been said that factories like Corbon and Triton have lately downloaded their 10mm in order to make their new loads (400 Corbon and .40 Super) look better. For instance, Corbon used to list it's 10mm at 150gr@1350fps, but now they lowered it to 1325fps so that the 400 Corbon looks more impressive. When, in reality, the 10mm could be loaded much faster than the 400 Corbon but they choose not to do it.
If 10mm were loaded to the max like these other loads, then it would be obvious to all that there is no need for these new wildcat cartridges. All they are is a re-invention of a cartridge that already exists in a stock gun: the 10mm.
[This message has been edited by CassandraComplex (edited July 08, 2000).]
If you want supreme hitting power, then carry a light bullet for shallow penetration and massive energy dump (135-155gr bullets at hot velocities) that makes the proven .357 Magnum look tame. If you want deep penetration, go with the heavier bullet and you get extreme penetration.
Ps- Accordong to some who do it, you can handload a 10mm to 135gr@1800 fps and almost 1000 ft-lbs of KE and still be within pressure limits. Most people, especially factories, just don't load 10mm to it's potential because people are too wimpy and they get upset about the recoil. The .40 Super is new and trying to make it's mark, so they are loading it as hot as possible. It has been said that factories like Corbon and Triton have lately downloaded their 10mm in order to make their new loads (400 Corbon and .40 Super) look better. For instance, Corbon used to list it's 10mm at 150gr@1350fps, but now they lowered it to 1325fps so that the 400 Corbon looks more impressive. When, in reality, the 10mm could be loaded much faster than the 400 Corbon but they choose not to do it.
If 10mm were loaded to the max like these other loads, then it would be obvious to all that there is no need for these new wildcat cartridges. All they are is a re-invention of a cartridge that already exists in a stock gun: the 10mm.
[This message has been edited by CassandraComplex (edited July 08, 2000).]
Fud,
I know this is a topic that greatly troubles you -– and for good reason. I would like to offer an opinion, although I am certainly no alligator expert. The .45 ACP, the 10 mm, and some other semiautomatics mentioned in this thread are all likely to kill, disable or drive-off Mr. 'Gator, when fired with reasonable accuracy.
I would personally be more concerned with the bullet type, rather than the caliber per se. This results from the unique nature of the alligator's anatomy (very hard upper hide, small central nervous system, etc.), particularly in comparison to humans (which rounds like Hydra-Shok are designed to disable). I respectfully suggest you consider loads such as Federal's Cast-Core series (.41, .44 and .357 magnum). They provide significant muzzle velocity and muzzle energy –- and they are specifically designed to penetrate tough animal hides.
I wonder if top-quality .357 magnum revolver (such as a S&W 627, a S&W 686 or a Ruger GP-100, with six or more rounds, and with at least a five-inch barrel) loaded with 180 grain Federal Cast-Core rounds (providing 1250 fps muzzle velocity and 625 pounds of muzzle energy) might not be a good choice for your unique 'gator problem?
I know you have fewer shots available without relaoding, but won't six .357 magnum Cast-Core rounds do the job with even a 50 percent "hit rate"?
Regards.
I know this is a topic that greatly troubles you -– and for good reason. I would like to offer an opinion, although I am certainly no alligator expert. The .45 ACP, the 10 mm, and some other semiautomatics mentioned in this thread are all likely to kill, disable or drive-off Mr. 'Gator, when fired with reasonable accuracy.
I would personally be more concerned with the bullet type, rather than the caliber per se. This results from the unique nature of the alligator's anatomy (very hard upper hide, small central nervous system, etc.), particularly in comparison to humans (which rounds like Hydra-Shok are designed to disable). I respectfully suggest you consider loads such as Federal's Cast-Core series (.41, .44 and .357 magnum). They provide significant muzzle velocity and muzzle energy –- and they are specifically designed to penetrate tough animal hides.
I wonder if top-quality .357 magnum revolver (such as a S&W 627, a S&W 686 or a Ruger GP-100, with six or more rounds, and with at least a five-inch barrel) loaded with 180 grain Federal Cast-Core rounds (providing 1250 fps muzzle velocity and 625 pounds of muzzle energy) might not be a good choice for your unique 'gator problem?
I know you have fewer shots available without relaoding, but won't six .357 magnum Cast-Core rounds do the job with even a 50 percent "hit rate"?
Regards.
I'm no gator expert, although I've seen a few out and about when I was a kid in Louisiana. I see one every now and then here in East Texas and they are making a good come back in several areas of Texas.
Trappers do often use a .22 RF to dispatch gators (or at least used to when I was a kid). "Dispatching" is a lot different than "stopping". You're close and the shot placement is (usually) precise. Besides, you don't want to screw up the hide. .22s, .32s and .38 Spec. are all commonly used to dispatch large halibut, but again - the halibut is restrained, close and the shot placement precise. (Any one who thinks large halibut (200+) are not dangerous never had one in a small boat with them.)
Also when I was a youngster I killed feral swine in the 200 - 300 pound class with a .22 - again careful shot placement. I would not recommend a .22 to "stop" a large hog under full motivation.
Gators are reptiles and are wired a bit differently than mammals. The brain is much smaller in relation to body size and the rest of the nervous system carries a bit more of the motor load than is true with mammals.
You do want penetration, but unless you are dealing with "Movie Star" sized gators any of the serious calibers mentioned (with proper bullet shape and full power loads) will give you plenty at the range you're contemplating.
Considering you're basically interested in child protection (or pet protection) your primary concern is stopping/delaying the gator so you will have time to grab your child and beat feet in a safe direction. As I recall from your last post you did that pretty well, but being distracted with your child's safety you (understandably) did some spray and pray. If there is another incident the modus operandi (sp?) is apt to be the same and I'd vote for a handgun with as many rounds as you can have.
If, heaven forbid, one actually grabs your child you need to run as fast as you can and land on top of that sucker. You objective is the same as with any BG, to stop the threat and, - aside from the danger to your child from gun fire - you can best do that physically. Then do everything you can with gun or knife to puree his innards. They are amazingly fast and when they grab something fairly large (relative to the gator) they'll try to shake or toss their prey and/or drag it to water. Plus if you're lucky he'll turn loose of your child and get into a defensive posture if your charge makes him feel threatened.
Unless you're dealing with "movie" sized gators, you can hold one up from the back - guys all over Florida do that three times a day in shows. That's not something I'd want to do, but if it were my child I'd damn sure give it my best.
I sincerely hope that you never have the occassion to test any of the suggestions or advice given by myself or others.
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Jim Fox
Trappers do often use a .22 RF to dispatch gators (or at least used to when I was a kid). "Dispatching" is a lot different than "stopping". You're close and the shot placement is (usually) precise. Besides, you don't want to screw up the hide. .22s, .32s and .38 Spec. are all commonly used to dispatch large halibut, but again - the halibut is restrained, close and the shot placement precise. (Any one who thinks large halibut (200+) are not dangerous never had one in a small boat with them.)
Also when I was a youngster I killed feral swine in the 200 - 300 pound class with a .22 - again careful shot placement. I would not recommend a .22 to "stop" a large hog under full motivation.
Gators are reptiles and are wired a bit differently than mammals. The brain is much smaller in relation to body size and the rest of the nervous system carries a bit more of the motor load than is true with mammals.
You do want penetration, but unless you are dealing with "Movie Star" sized gators any of the serious calibers mentioned (with proper bullet shape and full power loads) will give you plenty at the range you're contemplating.
Considering you're basically interested in child protection (or pet protection) your primary concern is stopping/delaying the gator so you will have time to grab your child and beat feet in a safe direction. As I recall from your last post you did that pretty well, but being distracted with your child's safety you (understandably) did some spray and pray. If there is another incident the modus operandi (sp?) is apt to be the same and I'd vote for a handgun with as many rounds as you can have.
If, heaven forbid, one actually grabs your child you need to run as fast as you can and land on top of that sucker. You objective is the same as with any BG, to stop the threat and, - aside from the danger to your child from gun fire - you can best do that physically. Then do everything you can with gun or knife to puree his innards. They are amazingly fast and when they grab something fairly large (relative to the gator) they'll try to shake or toss their prey and/or drag it to water. Plus if you're lucky he'll turn loose of your child and get into a defensive posture if your charge makes him feel threatened.
Unless you're dealing with "movie" sized gators, you can hold one up from the back - guys all over Florida do that three times a day in shows. That's not something I'd want to do, but if it were my child I'd damn sure give it my best.
I sincerely hope that you never have the occassion to test any of the suggestions or advice given by myself or others.
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Jim Fox
You know I got to thinking. Scary thing. I love the .45 but caliber preference is out the door here. We could be talking about a little kids life here. Hopefully not! So lets take all the guess work out of it, play time is over. If it were me I think I would go buy a .454 Casull with the highest round capacity I could find. I know that there is a 6 round. Is there an 8? I don't know. All I know is that the .454 Cusull is one of the best hand held firearms that you can use against 4 legged critters. Maybe a .50 AE
I know, I know ammo is expensive and you will need quite a little bit of practice with this hand cannon. But I know you feel the same way I do about our kids, there isn't enough money in the world to replace them. This is just what I think I would do if I were in your situation and knew that I might have to protect my boy from some animal.
I know, I know ammo is expensive and you will need quite a little bit of practice with this hand cannon. But I know you feel the same way I do about our kids, there isn't enough money in the world to replace them. This is just what I think I would do if I were in your situation and knew that I might have to protect my boy from some animal.
Thanks to everyone for their input. I plan on getting out to the range within the next couple of weeks to rent a .357 and a .454 to see how they compare to one another. I know the .454 is going to kick a whole lot more but I want to see if it is still managable when compared to the .357 -- the important thing here is being able to hit your target (don't think that gators are going to be scared off by a louder noise).
Recoil, shmecoil. Get a Glock 20 and stoke it up with the hottest load you can get. The result: an exhilirating weapon to shoot that is controlable. I was nervous the first time I fired one and now I'm in love. Recoil is nothing to worry about in this weapon.
As for the .45 Super, I don't like the idea of a magnum class round that will easily fit into chambers designed for a far less powerful round. If you want to convert the .45, convert it to .40 Super. That way, no danger of having the weapon go "boom" in a way you didn't want and you get superior power to boot. Of course, then, you're really talking about recoil.
As for the .45 Super, I don't like the idea of a magnum class round that will easily fit into chambers designed for a far less powerful round. If you want to convert the .45, convert it to .40 Super. That way, no danger of having the weapon go "boom" in a way you didn't want and you get superior power to boot. Of course, then, you're really talking about recoil.
I'd say even 9mm FMJ will penetrate the gator. I wouldn't think of using HPs, no matter what caliber. I also wouldn't think of a .454 that will blow half a gators head off, yet not stop its primitive nervous system from crawling into the water with my kid. I want follow-ups that are quick, numerous, and can be placed where they seem to do the most good at a moment's notice -- quick reloads too.
Also, we seem to be making gators out to be more of threat than they are. Keep the young one away from the water, including any pools, w/o supervision, and the threat should go down a good deal.
All crocodilians seem to kill by drowning anything unlucky enough to get caught in their vise-like jaws, then barrel rolling to break of pieces big enough to swallow. The tail would easily kill a two year old.
I suggest a little reading to find out the instinctive behavior of the beast (Would a good whack discourage them, or will you need to empty an entire mag into them to make them look elsewhere for lunch?). The best surprise is no surprise. Also, no reason to kill anything when a little common sense would have kept you out of trouble to begin with. It is nice to think how one could save the day with a rod in their hand, but it could still be too late to do anything but avenge a needless death, thus bringing the number to two.
I see gator hunters using .357 in revolvers or as powerheads on a bangstick when I see nature programs on TV, if this gives you a feel for adequate firepower.
Also, we seem to be making gators out to be more of threat than they are. Keep the young one away from the water, including any pools, w/o supervision, and the threat should go down a good deal.
All crocodilians seem to kill by drowning anything unlucky enough to get caught in their vise-like jaws, then barrel rolling to break of pieces big enough to swallow. The tail would easily kill a two year old.
I suggest a little reading to find out the instinctive behavior of the beast (Would a good whack discourage them, or will you need to empty an entire mag into them to make them look elsewhere for lunch?). The best surprise is no surprise. Also, no reason to kill anything when a little common sense would have kept you out of trouble to begin with. It is nice to think how one could save the day with a rod in their hand, but it could still be too late to do anything but avenge a needless death, thus bringing the number to two.
I see gator hunters using .357 in revolvers or as powerheads on a bangstick when I see nature programs on TV, if this gives you a feel for adequate firepower.
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