458 Win Mag VS Newer African Safari Magnums

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PHEASANTPETE

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Thought that the ol 458 Win Mag discussion was interesting enough to see if any experienced safari types had anything to add. I noticed the old refrain from the early 1960's when ball powder was used and compressed and sometimes clumped in the high temperatures of the African sun. That powder was incorrect for the intended use and is no longer recommended. Some mentioned use in Alaska.

I had a an older gentleman who took his to Kodiak Island to be part of his resident son's hunting party. He said he had the biggest rifle in camp and only fired it a few times in the 25 years he owned it. Most carried the 338 Win Mag and he said his son harvested a Kodiak with his 338 Win Mag. He said he felt more confident carrying the 458 Win Mag with his backup 45-70 BFR but he was only there as backup insurance for his son who had the resident license. I can understand the confidence theory when a Kodiak circles around and show up from behind all of a sudden.

What about the newer types like the 458 Lott
 
Well I'm no safari type - never left the country.

But from what I've read about African hunting, it seems that there's two basic schools of thoughts on elephant hunting (note that on anything smaller, including cape buff, rhino, and hippo, there seems to be agreement that a .40ish cal of some kind is ideal - .416 Rigby, .404 Jeffrey, .416 Remington, etc. - and a .375 with really heavy A-frames or solids is ok too in a pinch) - but on elephants, the crap gets real so to speak, it seems, so people have competing theories - elephants can hurt and kill you very VERY quickly. Yeah, a cape buff may be able to kill you quickly, but an elephant it's near instantaneous in my understanding. So for that ultimate land game, some people think that the .400s are still the best bet, in the heaviest configs, because they have a greater sectional density than the .450s and up (long bullets) and thus in theory more penetration potential (more velocity too, generally) - and they're at the uppermost limit of recoil tolerance without flinching for most people.

The other school of thought is that "shock value" is of utmost importance for stopping power if you get *near* the brain, but don't hit the brain of an elephant - and that this shock value consideration trumps the tiny less amount of penetration. That school says .450s and larger deliver such a shock that the .400s//416s don't seem to. They say use a .458 winmag at a minimum, but preferably a .450 with more oomph: .458 Lott, .450 Nitro, .450 Rigby, .460 Wby, etc... -- but better yet, something even bigger and heavier than a .450 - such as .470 nitro, .470 Capstick, .505 Gibbs, .500 Jeffrey, etc. all the way up to ridiculous masochistic insanity such as the .577 T-Rex, .600 Nitro, or .700 nitro.

But I have no idea. If I could afford an elephant tag (I can't), I'd use a .375 HH mag with 380 Rhinos and let my PH back me up with whatever he thinks is best (which in my understanding is most commonly a .458 winmag, but it varies).

The .458 Lott is known as a good call for many people if you want to go bigger than a .400/.416 in a "true" African DG round (since some people claim that .458 winmag ain't one), because it can be had in very affordable rifles (under $1,500), and can also shoot .458 winmag in a pinch. But the drawback is that it kicks like a mule, so if you can't stand to practice with it, and/or develop a flinch, it probably ain't worth it.... which is why the .416s continue to be very popular - a lot of people seem to think they're the upper limit of tolerable recoil to practice enough to be Africa-worthy, for most people's tolerance of recoil. Particularly since the .416 Remington and .416 Rigby can be had in affordable rifles too these days - e.g. CZ 550 Amer. Safari Mag. In my understanding.

P.S. By the way, on a sidebar, I actually know a guy (who happens to be a pompous jerk but very smart) who isn't a big hunter but when he does hunt whitetail deer, he insists on using a .458 Win Mag and won't use anything else. For years he didn't have one and so just didn't hunt, until he got one again. :rolleyes:
 
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Good Point about Being Tolerable

I personally have never shot the 458 Win Mag but could if I choose because of a connection. Do you have an idea of the recoil force of a 500 gn 458 Win Mag. It must be over 60# maybe 70# but I am guessing here.
 
.458 Winchester Magnum

The .458 is one of those unlucky rounds that never quite lived up to what was claimed for it. It does some things very well, just not what it was hyped to do when it was introduced.

I'm not a safari type (unless that lottery ticket really pays off...) but thanks to a good friend who has a large interest in African rifles and cartridges, I have read a lot about them, and all the famous PH's and their recommendations.

There is a "sweet spot" in the velocity range, with the big (40+) calibers that runs between 2100 and 2300 fps. 500gr (ish) bullets at that speed have proven to be the best penetrators, particularly when talking elephant brain shots.

Slower bullets simply don't penetrate as well, or as reliably, and faster bullets also don't work as reliably, they have a tendency to "glance off" the skull, rather than bust though. The .460 Weatherby never got popular in Africa, mostly because its higher velocity actually reduced its effectiveness. (the cost, availablilty, and the fact that the Weatherby rifle is one of the worst stock designs for a heavy recoiling cartridge were also significant factors).

The .458 Win had its own issues when it first went to Africa. First was the powder not behaving in the high temps, and second was the construction of the 500gr solid that Win loaded. The bullet issue got fixed, and the powder one too, but along the way it was recognized that the capacity of the .458 Win simply wasn't enough to get the hoped for ( and claimed) velocities.

This was because of Winchester's decision to use the "short" magnum case rather than the longer .375H&H length. Probably this was a calculated decision to boost sales. With a .458 that would work in any standard length (.30-06) action, they figured they would sell more rifles. There are a lot of us who would, or did buy a .458, knowing we would never be going to Africa.

SO, the poor .458 Win gets a bum rap, because it just can't quite make the claimed (and desired) speed with the 500gr bullet. The .458 Lott is simply the .458 Win case, lengthened enough to hold enough powder to make that "sweet spot" speed with a 500gr bullet.

None of this means the .48 Win doesn't work for elephants, or any of the Big 5 in Africa. It does, and has been in use for some time. It just doesn't work quite as well as some more powerful rounds. Read Capstick, and his days as a cropping officer using the .458 Winchester.



This is my .458 Winchester. Found it at a gun show some years ago, and while I have no idea why the guy who made it did it this way, I thought it was neat, and unique enough to be interesting. Its light, (relatively), and shoots very well. It has also taught me that a 400gr bullet at 2200fps is about all the recoil I can tolerate, when not shooting at an animal.:D

Cast slugs of 400gr weight, at about 1800fps are a different matter, and while stout, I can manage those well enough. Also have recovered bullets from over two feet deep in a tree (only very slightly distorted), so I think I have enough penetration for North American game. ;)

I would hunt deer, or anything else with my .458, and tailor my ammo for the game. Loaded to warmish/hot .45-70 speeds, the .458 isn't straining, and will handle anything that walks on my half of the planet.
 
Just a quick note.
Way back before WW2 the Rhodesian government bough 404 Jeffery rifles for its game officers and they were used from then until the early 60s when they bought 458 M-70s from Winchester.

I knew several of those old timers. Many didn't like the early m-70 for only one reason. At 8.5 pounds they KICK.
But I NEVER heard a single solitary complaint from any one of them about how well they killed game. It’s interesting to me that only those that shoot their 458s maybe 20 shots in a lifetime at game complain about its performance, but those that shot thousands of rounds didn’t
(Some used such guns for over 20 years)
 
With a .458 that would work in any standard length (.30-06) action, they figured they would sell more rifles.
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The Winchester short belted magnums have always mystified me.
They made the Model 70 in .375 H&H so they did not have to shorten the cases for THEIR rifles. They could have had the equivalent of the Lott to start with. Sell more ammunition for other brands?

I recall the story of the group of PWHs who were dissatisfied with .458s not equaling a .450 Nitro, especially after Winchester shortened the barrel to 22".
One or more of them being the rare non-US handloader, they did some experimenting and ended up with .458s loaded with Cordite from pulldown .303. That got the velocity up into the Nitro Express range without excessive pressure in the tropics. Presumably we have better OEM and handloader powders now.
 
I dont have either of them now, but I had a .458 Win and .460 WBY. The .458 Winchester to me did not kick that bad with a brake on it. Guessing it was about like a .30-06. With the brake off, it would get uncomfortable very quickly. The brake was permanently attached to the .460 WBY. That suited me just fine because I would not have been foolish enough to shoot it without a brake anyway. I never took them to Africa (Out of my price range) but I shot a lot of hard objects with both of them. The WBY was visibly stronger than the Win. I think if I get a notion to get another .458, it will be a Lott. I have a .416 Rigby at the moment, (In case I run into a deer my .338 lapua wont kill :D) Seriously, I have no idea why I have a .416 or why I ever had the .458 or the .460.
 
Sometimes there are things in life that we can actually experience, for ourselves, instead of just reading about them.

I got a .458 because I could, to satisfy the curiosity I had nursed for decades. And it didn't cost me any more than another "regular" rifle in a caliber I do actually have a use for.

Eventually I might have my .458 rebarreled to a smaller bore, but handloading means I've got everything from a black powder level .45-70 load up to full .458 Winchester, so, its not totally a waste of time. :D
 
I think the .416 wby mag is the best african dangerous game rifle.400gr @2,800

the alternatives

60 or 50 cal english double barrels.to much bullet and not enough velocity sometimes a 600 gr bullet only stuns an elephant.these are guide guns so if the client only wounds an animal and the animal charges the guide finishes the job at point blank range.but not hunting guns

.416 rigby and 404 jeffries

on the lighter side of goodenough in experienced hands

.378 wby or 375 dakota. plenty of power but many african nations have a 40 or bigger cal bore limit even if these two .375's are more powerfull than the jeffry or the rigby


450 dakota and 460 wby the bullet size of a .458 win but as flat shooting as the .378 wby.bufalo and elephant and rino are always taken at close range.these to guns would be better suited as mounted machine guns on tanks,only the 50bmg has more power than these too.there just more power and recoil than what could ever be needed.i could see if you were somewhere that required taking a 400 yard shot on bufalo or elephant


.416 wby or 404 dakota have 416 riby and .400 jefries bullet size with .378 wby velocity and less recoil that a .460 wby or .450 dakota
 
I have shot and reloaded a long time with/for 458 win mag. Downloaded to 45/70range with 350grain bullets its a great gun and fun to shoot. With factory 500 gain it gives me a headache. I had a friend that asked to shoot it, and he shot it once and said thank you and never asked again. I did some wet phone books penetration tests with it many years ago. With 500 gain solids it far exceeds anything I have tested in this manner. I don't remember the numbers but it ran me out of books the day we did that test and without recovering a single solid bullet.

I purchased the rifle 25 years ago while planning to go to Africa. I never went.
 
A bit out of my area of experience. But it is my understanding that for several years after introduction the 458 got a bad rap for not living up to advertised claims. Seems the problem was traced back to defective factory loading machinery that often put less powder in cases than specified. Hand loaders were able to get much more out of the round, and after the problem was found and corrected factory loads improved as well.

But the damage was done, and years later the caliber still gets a bad rap at times. I have no need for one. The only thing close to a big bore I've ever fooled with were a 45-70 loaded to near 458 levels and a 416 Rigby. The 416 was not bad at all. There is nothing I'd want to shoot bad enough to shoot more loads that hot from a Marlin 1895.
 
I dont trust the 1895 Marlin. Mine blew open and hurt my hand pretty bad and I was shooting loads were under maximum in the Hodgdon book on the "Marlin only" load pages. I got so ill at the rifle that I did not even take it apart. I took it to my friend who does Marlin warranty work and he fixed it. Said he replaced "every part that moves" in it.
 
Never hunted any of the big five

From all my readings on the subject, the heaviest bullet you can get to 2200 fps is about best for elephant, hippo, rhino or buffalo.
 
With the new mono metal bullets from CEB and powders like Accurate 2230, Benchmark and IMR8208, you can easily get a 450 gr solid to 2200+ fps, and a 400-420 gr soft to over 2300 fps. 500 grain bullets are just not needed with today's technology.
 
A 500 (or 510) grain .45 bullet was Winchester's idea.
The various British .45 express rifles typically shoot bullets of 460-480 grains.
Took a .465 or .470 to get to 500.
 
45-70 with 630 grain slugs. (Even if you only pushed it to 1100fps, good luck stopping that projectile)
.408 cheytac (419 grains @ 3000FPS 8373ft-lbs)
.50BMG
20mm
Also throw in the .375 Ruger because it achieves equal or more energy to the .375H&H and it will fit in a standard action.

:D
 
I think the .416 wby mag is the best african dangerous game rifle.400gr @2,800
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You would think so, on paper.

But there are times when high velocity is not your friend.

I don't know what the "sweet spot" for .416" 400gr bullets is, but with .45 cal (and bigger) for elephant it seems to be between 2100-2300fps. This is for "stopping shots", frontal head shots at short range.

From what I have read (written by individuals with actual hands on experience), the .460 Weatherby, with its advertised 2700fps 500gr bullet actually gave less satisfactory performance in the hands of PHs making stopping shots than "lesser" rounds delivering the same bullet at 2200fps+/-.

They attributed this to the high velocity of the Weatherby round, making the bullet more likely to glance off the skull, where a slower bullet would penetrate. It's not a question of power, but a matter of impact angles and speed.

Capstick tells of an incident (Death in the Long Grass-I think), where, working as a cropping officer, always reloaded leaving over the last round in the magazine (Win model 70 .458 Win Mag), so he had a round available should he be charged during reloading.

This finally happened to him, after taking 10 shots, reloading over the same cartridge, he was forced to use his "emergency round". Recoil and report were abnormal. So was the reaction of the elephant. It came on. His tracker distracted the beast by throwing the water bag in front of it. Dry season, the elephant paused to search for the source of the water smell. Capstick rolled to the side, reloaded, and dropped the beast.

Afterwards, he repeated the shooting, at a termite mound, ten shots, loading over the last round, each time. Battering in the magazine had pushed the bullet deeper in the case, compressing the powder, which he believed increased the velocity to the point where the round failed to penetrate. Examination of the elephant showed the shot was in the right place, but the bullet had not penetrated, only skidded around the skull, ending up under the skin at the back of the head.

I can't say whether or not he was right on the why, but there's no question about the what.
 
The Winchester short belted magnums have always mystified me.
They made the Model 70 in .375 H&H so they did not have to shorten the cases for THEIR rifles. They could have had the equivalent of the Lott to start with. Sell more ammunition for other brands?
Click to expand...

Ha, good point. Sometimes gun makers will boggle the mind with their decisions.

I dont trust the 1895 Marlin. Mine blew open and hurt my hand pretty bad and I was shooting loads were under maximum in the Hodgdon book on the "Marlin only" load pages
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Wow. Thanks for the heads-up. Never heard that before about them.
 
The .458 Win was always over-rated, mainly because at the time it was introduced everything else was on the wane. All the pre-WWII, "old school" African DG magazine rifles of the 1920-1930s, chambered for the classic DG cartridges of that era (.404 Jeffery, .425 WR), used by both professional hunters and their clients, and widely issued to African game-control employees, had reached the end of their useful service life (circa 1950s).

Jack Lott tried to improve on the .458, but extra recoil was the cost of his "upgrade." :rolleyes:

Me, I'll stick with old-school big bore.
In my case, that means a .423 bullet of 400gns @ 2300fps.
(Jeffery's original velocity of 2150fps would probably suffice for today's DG hunting since we have vastly superior bullets.)

.404 Jeffery DGR by AHR .




:cool:
 
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