I have read some back posts regarding dangerous African game rifle cartridges and was surprised at the number of experts that claimed the 458 Winchester Magnum was not enough for elephants, rhinos, and other large game. What is the problem, if any, of this cartridge? If this caliber is too weak, then isn't the smaller 416 Rigby also inadequate? Just curious!
458 Win Mag not powerful enough?
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wileyburp44
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Hey Joe, me again! I think we all know what an expert is so we won't get into that. I've seen the African hunting videos and seen cape buffalos soak up .500 Jefferys with 535 gr bullets and not even flinch! The same with the .600 Nitro's and 900gr bullets. I've also seen them hit with a .375 H&H and drop in their tracks and never move again. Those African monsters are very tough and very mean and can take a lot of punisment, but it still boils down to shot placement and breaking large weight supporting bones to bring them down followed up with an insurance shot to the brain. The .458 Win Mag is more then powerful enough for anything on this planet. A 510gr bullet at 2100-2200 fps is nothing to sneeze at. If I had my choice I'd take a .458 to Africa or Alaska, no doubt about it. Good talking to you!
God Bless
Chris
God Bless
Chris
.458 Winchester Magnum is enough.
Problem is that NOTHING on earth will work 99.999% of the time on the biggest most dangerous animals.
Sure you could call in a B-52 strike on your Water Buffalo, but it would cost a lot!
Shooting straighter is worth more than getting a .700 Nitro Express!
Only other round to consider is the .416 Rigby and it's flatter trajectory. The .416 Rigby is used to replace both the .375 H&H and .458 Winchester magnum. It combines .458 power and .375 trajectory.
Problem is that NOTHING on earth will work 99.999% of the time on the biggest most dangerous animals.
Sure you could call in a B-52 strike on your Water Buffalo, but it would cost a lot!
Shooting straighter is worth more than getting a .700 Nitro Express!
Only other round to consider is the .416 Rigby and it's flatter trajectory. The .416 Rigby is used to replace both the .375 H&H and .458 Winchester magnum. It combines .458 power and .375 trajectory.
The problem with the 458 Winnie is a lack of case capacity, plain and simple. It's very tough to get full velocity out of it without developing high pressures. Big-bore nuts prefer cartridges like the 450 Ackley or 458 Lott, which allow you to get the desired velocity (2200-2300 fps) at moderate pressure levels.
The other cartridge mentioned here, the 416 Rigby, actually has a surplus of case capacity, since it was originally designed for use with Cordite. Cordite was pretty volatile stuff, so they used a big case to keep pressures very low. With modern powders, the case is a bit bigger than necessary. The .416 Rigby also really wants a magnum-length action. It *is* possible to build one on a Model 70 or Mauser 98, but you end up taking out a lot of metal to shoehorn those big Rigby cases into the action. The CZ 550 is perfectly proportioned to take the .416 Rigby, and you can get it right off-the-shelf at very reasonable prices.
Joe
The other cartridge mentioned here, the 416 Rigby, actually has a surplus of case capacity, since it was originally designed for use with Cordite. Cordite was pretty volatile stuff, so they used a big case to keep pressures very low. With modern powders, the case is a bit bigger than necessary. The .416 Rigby also really wants a magnum-length action. It *is* possible to build one on a Model 70 or Mauser 98, but you end up taking out a lot of metal to shoehorn those big Rigby cases into the action. The CZ 550 is perfectly proportioned to take the .416 Rigby, and you can get it right off-the-shelf at very reasonable prices.
Joe
The trouble with the .458 is getting 2000-2100 w/500grn. bullet with a 22-24" barrel. Most factory stuff I've chronographed only goes 1800-1900 fps. Handloads will do the trick but a problem arises in using them in tropical temperatures that tend to run safe pressures into the unsafe range due to the constant high heat.
dfm
dfm
So, it's the velocity again! I assume, then, that velocity is more important in rifles than caliber and bullet weight? Don't the latter two factors mean much in comparing rifles? If I remember correctly, the 416 Rigby uses 400 gr bullets going about 2400 ft/second with about 5100 ft lbs energy. The 458 Winchester Magnum can push a 510 gr bullet about 2050 ft/second with about 4700-4900 ft lbs energy. (I'm using the back of the 2002 Guns and Ammo tables by the way). So, the 416 Rigby has more energy and goes faster but the 458 has heavier bullets and makes a bigger hole. I always thought mass was the key to penetration, or does it only apply to handgun calibers?
FYI, I have nothing against the other calibers. When I decided I wanted a Safari-type rifle, it was purely for shooting as I do not hunt nor do I intend to go to Africa. My choice of the 458 Winchester Magnum was based mostly on availability and price of factory ammunition since I do not reload. The 416 Rigby goes for about $5/shot and the 470 Nitro Express goes for about $10/shot! If ammo weren't so expensive, it would've been a lot tougher choice. I guess I'd have to get all 3 and see for myself.
FYI, I have nothing against the other calibers. When I decided I wanted a Safari-type rifle, it was purely for shooting as I do not hunt nor do I intend to go to Africa. My choice of the 458 Winchester Magnum was based mostly on availability and price of factory ammunition since I do not reload. The 416 Rigby goes for about $5/shot and the 470 Nitro Express goes for about $10/shot! If ammo weren't so expensive, it would've been a lot tougher choice. I guess I'd have to get all 3 and see for myself.
The reason that the factories started to down load the .458 is because to obtain the desired 2100 fps out of the limited case in the .458 Win it must use a compressed load. The problem with compressed loads is that the powder tends to cake or clump with time especially in a hot climate. there have been many documentd cases of the .458 failing to penetrait on thin skined game because of this. The famous Wally Johnson nearly lost his life to a wounded Lion because of it.
The latest issue of the Rifleman has a great article about PH's rifles in which the also Famous Harry Selby describes this problem. If you are going to use the .458 on dangerous game it is recomended that first off you load your own ammunition to obtain the desired minmum 2100 fps on a 500 gr bullet and that at least once a year you pull the bullets or fire your ammuntion to prevent the powder from clumping.
The .458 was meant to replace the ballistics of the .470NE which is roughly a 500 gr bullet at 2100-2200fps unfortunatley due to tje above mentioned limitations it is onl loaded to about 1800fps in factory loading which is why the .458Lott is such a popular round. The Lott is everything the Win mag was supposed to be and easily obtains the desired velocity recomended for a heavy gun with realitvely low pressure whic aids in extraction especially in hot humid climates.
For more information on this subject go to www.african-hunter.com.
The latest issue of the Rifleman has a great article about PH's rifles in which the also Famous Harry Selby describes this problem. If you are going to use the .458 on dangerous game it is recomended that first off you load your own ammunition to obtain the desired minmum 2100 fps on a 500 gr bullet and that at least once a year you pull the bullets or fire your ammuntion to prevent the powder from clumping.
The .458 was meant to replace the ballistics of the .470NE which is roughly a 500 gr bullet at 2100-2200fps unfortunatley due to tje above mentioned limitations it is onl loaded to about 1800fps in factory loading which is why the .458Lott is such a popular round. The Lott is everything the Win mag was supposed to be and easily obtains the desired velocity recomended for a heavy gun with realitvely low pressure whic aids in extraction especially in hot humid climates.
For more information on this subject go to www.african-hunter.com.
"So, it's the velocity again! I assume, then, that velocity is more important in rifles than caliber and bullet weight? Don't the latter two factors mean much in comparing rifles?"
No and yes
You're getting into a lot of complicated questions here, but to begin at the beginning: The whole point of a dangerous game rifle is penetration. You want to drive a bullet as deep as possible, through thick skin, heavy muscle, and big bones, in a straight line. Bullet design and construction are *very* important, probably the most important considerations.
Velocity-wise, most big bore shooters find that maximum penetration occurs with a velocity between 2150 and 2400 fps (roughly). If the bullet is slower or faster than this, penetration is reduced. That's why the .416 Rigby is still loaded to 2350 or 2400 fps, even though you can hot-rod it well beyond that. If you crank it up to, say, 2700 fps, it kicks more and penetrates less.
The 458 Winchester has a hard time making it into this velocity "window" with 500 grain bullets, which is why so many people have a low opinion of it. You can, of course, get more velocity with a lighter bullet, but then you have less sectional density and, all else equal, less penetration.
If you want a .45 caliber dangerous game rifle, the .458 Lott, .450 Ackley, .460 G&A, etc. are much better because they can drive a 500 grain bullet (high sectional density) at 2300 fps, more or less, and they do so at relatively low pressure. Low pressure is GOOD! You don't want to freeze the bolt shut when something that stomps and bites is bearing down on you.
The .40 calibers like the various .416s and the .404 Jeffrey shoot a 400 grain bullet (again, high sectional density) at a velocity somewhere within that "window" of 2150-2400 fps. They tend to penetrate even better than the .45 caliber heavies, but they make a smaller wound channel. They're also easier to shoot well since they recoil less.
The *best* places I know of to learn about big bores are the Accurate Reloading forums (www.accuratereloading.com) and the writings of Ross Seyfried. Read *everything* of his you can get your hands on.
Hope this helps some. This is a huge topic, and there's a lot to learn. I've just touched on some of the basics.
No and yes
You're getting into a lot of complicated questions here, but to begin at the beginning: The whole point of a dangerous game rifle is penetration. You want to drive a bullet as deep as possible, through thick skin, heavy muscle, and big bones, in a straight line. Bullet design and construction are *very* important, probably the most important considerations.
Velocity-wise, most big bore shooters find that maximum penetration occurs with a velocity between 2150 and 2400 fps (roughly). If the bullet is slower or faster than this, penetration is reduced. That's why the .416 Rigby is still loaded to 2350 or 2400 fps, even though you can hot-rod it well beyond that. If you crank it up to, say, 2700 fps, it kicks more and penetrates less.
The 458 Winchester has a hard time making it into this velocity "window" with 500 grain bullets, which is why so many people have a low opinion of it. You can, of course, get more velocity with a lighter bullet, but then you have less sectional density and, all else equal, less penetration.
If you want a .45 caliber dangerous game rifle, the .458 Lott, .450 Ackley, .460 G&A, etc. are much better because they can drive a 500 grain bullet (high sectional density) at 2300 fps, more or less, and they do so at relatively low pressure. Low pressure is GOOD! You don't want to freeze the bolt shut when something that stomps and bites is bearing down on you.
The .40 calibers like the various .416s and the .404 Jeffrey shoot a 400 grain bullet (again, high sectional density) at a velocity somewhere within that "window" of 2150-2400 fps. They tend to penetrate even better than the .45 caliber heavies, but they make a smaller wound channel. They're also easier to shoot well since they recoil less.
The *best* places I know of to learn about big bores are the Accurate Reloading forums (www.accuratereloading.com) and the writings of Ross Seyfried. Read *everything* of his you can get your hands on.
Hope this helps some. This is a huge topic, and there's a lot to learn. I've just touched on some of the basics.
Jim Watson
New member
Just things I have read...
The .450 Nitro and similar shoot 480 grain bullets. How much velocity does the .458 give up to boast 510s? I don't know.
There were some handloaders in Africa who found that the .458 could be loaded to .450-.470 velocities with no obvious signs of excess pressure... with Cordite. Source not stated but I suspect it was salvaged out of .303.
The .450 Nitro and similar shoot 480 grain bullets. How much velocity does the .458 give up to boast 510s? I don't know.
There were some handloaders in Africa who found that the .458 could be loaded to .450-.470 velocities with no obvious signs of excess pressure... with Cordite. Source not stated but I suspect it was salvaged out of .303.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Hum...
I think a lot of this is still "old news is still valid news..."
By that I mean that when the .458 first came out it got something of a bad reputation, not for lack of power, but for some poorly designed bullets that wouldn't perform adequately, especially the solids.
After those problems were worked out, the majority of the complaints about the .458 went away.
I think a lot of this is still "old news is still valid news..."
By that I mean that when the .458 first came out it got something of a bad reputation, not for lack of power, but for some poorly designed bullets that wouldn't perform adequately, especially the solids.
After those problems were worked out, the majority of the complaints about the .458 went away.
Vladimir_Berkov
New member
Think about all the large and dangerous game which was killed with black powder cartridges during the 19th century. It is the operator, not the equipment which matters.
You could do very well with only a .308, if you have the skill. Of course, when you start talking about going rhino hunting with a .22 pistol you really need to draw the line.
You could do very well with only a .308, if you have the skill. Of course, when you start talking about going rhino hunting with a .22 pistol you really need to draw the line.
Jim Watson
New member
Joe,
Quite the opposite.
John "Pondoro" Taylor was an elephant hunter. An admitted ivory poacher. He cared for nothing but killing elephants for income and game to feed himself and his trackers.
His Knock-Out values were calculated for RIFLE ballistics and agreed pretty well with his observations on how long a shot that missed the brain of an elephant would daze it.
Applying the same calculation to peashooters like pistols and deer rifles is nonsensical. Taylor himself said he showed some numbers for small and medium calibers only to show that they were totally unsuitable for dangerous game. He did say the .375 H&H performed better than its TKO rating indicated.
TKO = bullet weight x muzzle velocity x caliber
(bullet weight in pounds, grains/7000)
Quite the opposite.
John "Pondoro" Taylor was an elephant hunter. An admitted ivory poacher. He cared for nothing but killing elephants for income and game to feed himself and his trackers.
His Knock-Out values were calculated for RIFLE ballistics and agreed pretty well with his observations on how long a shot that missed the brain of an elephant would daze it.
Applying the same calculation to peashooters like pistols and deer rifles is nonsensical. Taylor himself said he showed some numbers for small and medium calibers only to show that they were totally unsuitable for dangerous game. He did say the .375 H&H performed better than its TKO rating indicated.
TKO = bullet weight x muzzle velocity x caliber
(bullet weight in pounds, grains/7000)
The .458 win mag was enough when it first came out but due to the powder limitations that were put on it caused by the before mentioned reason it is now considered not to have the knock down needed for tight situations.
For those of you who want to argue that a light .30 is enough for buff and elephant based on the fact that modern day paochers use AK's to kill elephants I have to agree. However there is a huge difference between shooting an elephant letting it run off if it doesn't fall on the spot and following one up in tight cover.
As far as using a light .30 for buff be my guest I however doubt that a mans enthusiasum would be quite so bright in a tight spot with an adrenalized pissed off bull with about 10 feet of visability avialable for a shot on a fast moving 2000lb+ thick skinned critter. That is were knock down and lots of it is needed. And that is why cartridges like the .458lott have been developed. The .460 Weatherby is just to much to handle for most people the Lott and the .460 G&A are a great in between for not quite enough and way to much.
I'd use a .7mm mag on buff in the wide open with a good rest from a hundred yards. You can kill anything with any rifle under perfect circumstances. When we speak of heavies we are talking about less than ideal conditions where your life may well be at risk.
For those of you who want to argue that a light .30 is enough for buff and elephant based on the fact that modern day paochers use AK's to kill elephants I have to agree. However there is a huge difference between shooting an elephant letting it run off if it doesn't fall on the spot and following one up in tight cover.
As far as using a light .30 for buff be my guest I however doubt that a mans enthusiasum would be quite so bright in a tight spot with an adrenalized pissed off bull with about 10 feet of visability avialable for a shot on a fast moving 2000lb+ thick skinned critter. That is were knock down and lots of it is needed. And that is why cartridges like the .458lott have been developed. The .460 Weatherby is just to much to handle for most people the Lott and the .460 G&A are a great in between for not quite enough and way to much.
I'd use a .7mm mag on buff in the wide open with a good rest from a hundred yards. You can kill anything with any rifle under perfect circumstances. When we speak of heavies we are talking about less than ideal conditions where your life may well be at risk.
From my reading of "African Rifles and Cartridges," I think H&H Hunter's statement is right on concerning Taylor's Knock Down Power stats. John Taylor came up with those to illustrate the actual OBSERVED performance of cartridges he USED in the THICK BRUSH where he shot at dangerous game at short distances under frankly scary conditions.
These conditions are something many of us will never experience so it is a little pretentious for an armchair commando like myself who has fired .458 and .460 Weatherby on the range to put myself in the same class with Pondoro. However, since I feel my experience is as valuable as anyone's, I simply do not trust a part-time gunwriter of no apparent credentials other than he is a gunwriter to tell me what a cartridge will or will not do in actual performance. Pondoro Taylor I WILL trust. Elmer Keith, another. Personal observation or observation of one I know to be balanced is another. Some of you who actually hunt Africa I will also trust.
But mere assertions by a gunzine writer as to the merits of a cartridge I will not trust. There is always somebody trying to sell an article hence they need to come up with something "new." Since there have been precious few things new in the world of guns over the last century, authors have relied on caliber wars to sell articles. This cartridge is better than that. It's an article made to sell, not to stake your hard earned money or life on!
Posts on an Internet forum of people that may have never fired a .458 Magnum or any heavy I will not trust, unless I have a pretty good knowledge of them over time.
This brings us to wildcatters. There are always a few who will not own a standard caliber. Thank God I have only known one or two personally.
These conditions are something many of us will never experience so it is a little pretentious for an armchair commando like myself who has fired .458 and .460 Weatherby on the range to put myself in the same class with Pondoro. However, since I feel my experience is as valuable as anyone's, I simply do not trust a part-time gunwriter of no apparent credentials other than he is a gunwriter to tell me what a cartridge will or will not do in actual performance. Pondoro Taylor I WILL trust. Elmer Keith, another. Personal observation or observation of one I know to be balanced is another. Some of you who actually hunt Africa I will also trust.
But mere assertions by a gunzine writer as to the merits of a cartridge I will not trust. There is always somebody trying to sell an article hence they need to come up with something "new." Since there have been precious few things new in the world of guns over the last century, authors have relied on caliber wars to sell articles. This cartridge is better than that. It's an article made to sell, not to stake your hard earned money or life on!
Posts on an Internet forum of people that may have never fired a .458 Magnum or any heavy I will not trust, unless I have a pretty good knowledge of them over time.
This brings us to wildcatters. There are always a few who will not own a standard caliber. Thank God I have only known one or two personally.
What other people have said about the .458 not quite delivering what it was supposed to (ballistics on a par with the .470/.465/.450 Nitro cartridges) is true. Winchester, for some reason, decided to introduce it as a "short" magnum, counting on ammo sales for rifles in this caliber built on other "standard" length actions. So they had to compress a lot of powder into the small case, which occasionally caused ignition problems. Downloading it solved ignition, but then, it no longer matched the .470-class cartridges it was supposed to. Jack Lott designed the longer 458 Lott to address the .458 Win Mag's shortcomings, and still, thanks to the taper and throating, allow use of standard .458 Win ammo in an emergency. (Not recommend for steady use - chance of chamber erosion and lower velocity.)
The .458 Lott is what the .458 Win should have been, as the M70 action easily accomodates it. (BTW, I've heard that Winchester M70's in .458 Lott are now available from the factory on special order.)
Some efforts to get the .458 Win up off its knees have involved handloading lighter 465 grain bullets from A-Square to higher velocity. (Of course, the last I heard was that the owner of A-Square was suspended from Safari Club International for ripping off customers, but that's another story.) Speer has introduced a 500 grain tungsten core solid that is shorter than other solids, leaving room for more powder in the case. Handloads with THESE rather expensive premium bullets CAN allow the .458 Win to deliver on its original promise of .470 class ballistics.
As far as the current downloaded .458 not being "enough" . . . I've seen a lot of articles lately about hotrodded .45/70 lever guns being used successfully on everything short of elephant and rhino. It's hard to believe a .45/70 is fine but a downloaded .458 is COMPLETELY worthless . . . but if I were going after big stuff with a .458, I'd still be sure to handload it to its full potential.
The .416 Rigby was designed to out a 400 grain bullet at about 2400. Pressures were deliberately kept low, as the cordite it was originally loaded with was temperature sensitive - pressures went up sharply as the temperature of the ammo increased. With modern powders, the Rigby can approach .416 Weatherby ballistics. (Weatherby based his .460 and .378 on a Rigby case, to which he added a belt.) But as already mentioned, recoil becomes fierce, and you need a BIG action to properly take a .416 Rigby.
The .416 Remington will safely deliver a 400 grain bullet at the Rigby's original 2400, with sane pressures in a Remington M700 or Winchester M70 action.
How much power is enough for the biggest game? First, ignore Karamojo Bell - today, you will NOT have the chance to practice your technique on thousands of head of African game over a period of years. These days, if you place a proper bullet carefully, anything from the .375 H&H on up will do.
I've spoken to a lot of people with lots of experience, and that's the consensus. I've also taken African plains game, lion, and a couple of Cape buffalo with a .375, and it worked just fine. (Of course, since it's only a realatively short list of big stuff, it may just mean I have enough experience to be dangerous! )
The .458 Lott is what the .458 Win should have been, as the M70 action easily accomodates it. (BTW, I've heard that Winchester M70's in .458 Lott are now available from the factory on special order.)
Some efforts to get the .458 Win up off its knees have involved handloading lighter 465 grain bullets from A-Square to higher velocity. (Of course, the last I heard was that the owner of A-Square was suspended from Safari Club International for ripping off customers, but that's another story.) Speer has introduced a 500 grain tungsten core solid that is shorter than other solids, leaving room for more powder in the case. Handloads with THESE rather expensive premium bullets CAN allow the .458 Win to deliver on its original promise of .470 class ballistics.
As far as the current downloaded .458 not being "enough" . . . I've seen a lot of articles lately about hotrodded .45/70 lever guns being used successfully on everything short of elephant and rhino. It's hard to believe a .45/70 is fine but a downloaded .458 is COMPLETELY worthless . . . but if I were going after big stuff with a .458, I'd still be sure to handload it to its full potential.
The .416 Rigby was designed to out a 400 grain bullet at about 2400. Pressures were deliberately kept low, as the cordite it was originally loaded with was temperature sensitive - pressures went up sharply as the temperature of the ammo increased. With modern powders, the Rigby can approach .416 Weatherby ballistics. (Weatherby based his .460 and .378 on a Rigby case, to which he added a belt.) But as already mentioned, recoil becomes fierce, and you need a BIG action to properly take a .416 Rigby.
The .416 Remington will safely deliver a 400 grain bullet at the Rigby's original 2400, with sane pressures in a Remington M700 or Winchester M70 action.
How much power is enough for the biggest game? First, ignore Karamojo Bell - today, you will NOT have the chance to practice your technique on thousands of head of African game over a period of years. These days, if you place a proper bullet carefully, anything from the .375 H&H on up will do.
I've spoken to a lot of people with lots of experience, and that's the consensus. I've also taken African plains game, lion, and a couple of Cape buffalo with a .375, and it worked just fine. (Of course, since it's only a realatively short list of big stuff, it may just mean I have enough experience to be dangerous!
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