454 Casull and 44 magnum comparison

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kmcdonou

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I have always wanted a 44 magnum to use as a woods gun. An acquaintance let me shoot his 44 mag revolver a while back and I don't remember the recoil being problematic. I don't remember the bullet weight but it was probably standard 240 gr rounds. I was looking at getting a Freedom Arms 83 in a 6" barrel, but I see many more 454 Casull's available. I suspect this is so because they recoil so much people don't want to shoot them after a while.

I don't reload yet, but was planning to start with this next purchase. I wondering if I could develop a load for the 454 Casull using a 300-310 gr hard cast bullet, running at 1,100 - 1,200 fps. I think this would handle anything I would encounter in the woods, even when visiting my sister in Montana, or my buddy in Alaska, and hiking in the back-country. I realize handguns aren't the best for bear defense, and I always carry bear spray, but I like to carry a weapon too. Sometimes carrying my shotgun with slugs isn't as convenient. With the load I proposed would the recoil be comparable in the 454 Casull versus the 44 magnum?

I know I can always go bigger and faster in the 454 Casull, but for all practical purposes, what is the point of diminishing returns in regards to a load that will give me a good chance at stopping a bear (given 1-2 good shots) yet not so harsh in recoil that I wouldn't want to practice with it? I realize one's tolerance of recoil is variable and subjective, but I am curious as your collective thoughts.

Like I said, I am only considering getting a 454 Casull because they are more readily available on GunBroker over the 44 magnum, at least in the Freedom Arms Model 83. If I can create loads that cover plinking to defense of life within the recoil of a 44 magnum and comparable reloading costs, I think that may be the approach I take.

What's your take? Am I off base here?
 
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Your logic is sound and your plan is a good one. You might want to just use 45 Colt brass and Ruger only loads.

I would also add that with the right loads, big bore revolvers are very effective against big bears. The only question would be the shooter's ability to place the shot in a high stress situation.
 
I have a Ruger SuperRedhawk in .454 Casull. Mostly I shoot warm .45 Colt loads through it. It's nice to be able to practice with loads that won't cripple you, but have the option of full-house Casull loads if needed. Mine has a 7 1/2" barrel. I may trade mine in on an "Alaskan" version with the snub barrel.
 
I'm sure you could develop a load like you described for a .454. You can also shoot .45 Colt out of a .454.
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While one can shoot .45 colt outta a .454, there's really no reason if you handload. You just download .454 to .45 colt levels and avoid the carbon ring caused by the shorter case. I believe a 310 gr bullet moving @ 1200 fps outta a .454 will have more felt recoil than a standard 240 gr load outta a .44 mag if shooting a firearm of the same approximate weight. Recoil is a subjective thing tho and is dependent of the person pulling the trigger. While recoil may be a factor as to why there are more .454s available than .44s, so is the cost of feeding them.
 
Well, it's always easier to download. I haven't fired a FA 83, but they're wonderful revolvers. Regarding recoil, it depends not only on the round fired, but the weight and grip style of the gun. My experience - full house 44's are no problem from a Redhawk. "Ruger only" .45 Colt loads from my 7 1/2" Blackhawk are another story. There's a reason why Ruger puts the .44 Mag in their heavier Super Blackhawk. I have a "bear buster" 45 load (1.5 gr below published max!) that sends a 360 Cast Performance downrange at an average 1,172 fps. That's within your velocity range, but obviously a bigger pill. Does it kick? Oh yeah, stings the palm and, unless I alter my grip, it bruises the knuckle behind the trigger guard. So, I usually shoot lighter loads. But if I were packing it for protection from tooth and claw (or hoof and horn - more likely to have a moose come after you) that's what I'd load. And you can load 45s in your Casull, one of its advantages. You can learn to shoot about anything if you put your mind to it, but be prepared for some thump.
 
Couple of things to respond to. buck460XVR mentions the reloading cost differences? Is that a big difference? What is significantly more expensive in reloading the 454 Casull over the 44 magnum, the brass, bullets, primers, or all of it?

A few mentioned shooting 45 Colt out of the Model 83. Bob Baker of Freedom Arms doesn't recommend it. See his response here http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,189645.msg1099239708.html#msg1099239708

I could get a separate 45 Colt cylinder or wait until a 454 Casull comes up on GunBroker with the extra cylinder. Yet, downloading the 454 Casull to 45 Colt levels seems a cheaper option.

Finally, does anyone think that 300-310 gr at 1,100- 1,200 fps is a reasonable bear defense load, e.g. recoil relative to effectiveness. I know I could load a much larger load at faster velocity and I probably wouldn't feel it if I needed to use it. However, I want to feel comfortable with whatever round I use, and that means being able to practice with it regularly.
 
While one can shoot .45 colt outta a .454, there's really no reason if you handload.
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That depends. Ruger only data is intended for the lesser case capacity of the 45 Colt so more powder would be needed in 454 cases to achieve the same velocity. 45 Colt cases might also already be on hand for use in other guns. The 45 also uses large pistol primers, while the 454 uses small rifle. Maybe you have those on hand, maybe you don't.

Issues with the carbon ring are entirely overblown. The issue only arises when you shoot enough 45 Colt loads to produce a carbon ring and follow that with full 65kpsi loads in the 454. If you switch from 45 to 454, just clean your chambers. Personally, I'd never shoot 454 out of it. The 45 offers plenty of everything.


Finally, does anyone think that 300-310 gr at 1,100- 1,200 fps is a reasonable bear defense load, e.g. recoil relative to effectiveness.
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Yes. Velocity won't gain you lethality.
 
I could get a separate 45 Colt cylinder or wait until a 454 Casull comes up on GunBroker with the extra cylinder.
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Or you could do as Bob suggests in the link and clean your gun after shooting Colt loads.
 
Judging from the above conversations, it's more of a Freedom Arms thing, rather than the differences in case lengths.
I've lost count of the .44 spl cases that I've shot from various .44 mag revolvers.
And .38s in .357s.
With the usual good cleaning after using them, there's been nary a problem.
But they were not Freedom Arms guns.
(I only wish).
When in doubt, it's best to follow the recommendations of the manufacturer.

As for what's a reasonable round for protection against bears, you're asking for assurances when there are none.
There's no two bears quite alike, with differences in size, level of aggression and your own response.
 
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Couple of things to respond to. buck460XVR mentions the reloading cost differences? Is that a big difference? What is significantly more expensive in reloading the 454 Casull over the 44 magnum, the brass, bullets, primers, or all of it?
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The biggest cost difference in projectiles, with brass being second. While .454 brass is more expensive than .44, it is a one time thing. Primers cost the same regardless, powder while costing the same(and you use the same powders for .454 as for .44), needs a larger charge generally in .454 than .44(but not real significant). The biggest difference in projectile cost is when using bullets appropriate for .454 pressures and velocities. While one can use projectiles intended for .45 colt, they are not always appropriate for .454, especially jacketed. The thin jackets used for .45 bullets can cause premature and excessive forcing cone erosion when used for legitimate .454 loads. Those jacketed bullets intended for .454 are not as readily available and cost more. Many folks prefer lead to be gas checked for .454. when shooting reduced loads and one is using .45 colt projectiles, the cost difference between .454 and .44 is not much.

That depends. Ruger only data is intended for the lesser case capacity of the 45 Colt so more powder would be needed in 454 cases to achieve the same velocity. 45 Colt cases might also already be on hand for use in other guns. The 45 also uses large pistol primers, while the 454 uses small rifle. Maybe you have those on hand, maybe you don't.
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If the OP is intending to load any .454 at all, he will have SRPs. Since primer cost is the same regardless of size, why would this have any effect on choice, especially when the OP is comparing .454 to .44? One should ask, does he have any .45 colt cases on hand? If he has to buy .45 colt cases just for reduced loads, again, why bother?

Issues with the carbon ring are entirely overblown. The issue only arises when you shoot enough 45 Colt loads to produce a carbon ring and follow that with full 65kpsi loads in the 454. If you switch from 45 to 454, just clean your chambers. Personally, I'd never shoot 454 out of it. The 45 offers plenty of everything.
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Wonder why Bob Baker advises against it then? Myself, I tend to listen more closely to experts on the subject than random internet posters. You most certainly are free to do differently. If one actually reloads for the big boomers like .454 and .460, they quickly find out that cases don't last forever when used at the upper end. I restrict my .460 cases to 5 loads at legitimate .460 pressures and then delegate them to the "reduced load" can. While I too can use .45 colt in my firearm, I have more than enough of these cases to load with reduced loads, that I don't need to have extra .45 colt brass on hand. I agre tho, that the .45 colt is an effective caliber. This is why I advise folks looking to buy a .454 or .460 and use it pretty much exclusively to shoot .45 colt, to just get a .45 colt.
 
Do some reading by Tim Sundles of buffalo bore and John Linebaugh and you'll see what you are looking at is totally reasonable line of defense again big animals. Proper speed (not as fast as you'd think) mixed with a proper hardness lead bullet can penetrate many FEET whilst crushing its way through bone and meat.

I think you have a good plan in mind.
 
I own both and I have fired more rounds from both caliber than I can count over the last 30 years.
My opinion is that the 454 Casull is a specialist gun and the 44 mag is the best general purpose revolver ever made.
The Casull is obviously more powerful and no revolver on earth is more accurate when you give them the loads they like, but they are designed from the ground up as a magnum's magnum.
They are not a gun for a casual 3-4 time a year shooter. The recoil of full power/ heavy bullet loads is something that is for the very experienced shooter only.

My experience with them (the Freedom Arms Revolvers) is that they shoot their best with full power loads. I prefer the LBT 370 grain WFN-GC bullets with full loads of 296 powder fired with small rifle primers. They are not bad with mid-range loads, but they shoot no better than any other revolver when you load them down, and in many cases not quite as well as a S&W or Ruger in 45 Colt.
Freedom Arms Premier grade guns sell new for over $2000 and I see them as high as $2300. Speaking strictly for myself, that seems like an awful lot of money if you are only going to get the same power and as good or slightly less accuracy as you can buy for 1/2 or 1/3 the amount.
If you run a Freedom 454 at top-end they shoot SUPER accurately, but most men don't want to run that kind of power all the time.

Now the 44s.....they run at 600 FPS with excellent accuracy and they run at 1600 FPS with excellent accuracy. The shoot 180s and 320s, all with excellent accuracy. For anyone loading their own ammo, I personally think the 44 mag is the best all-around revolver ever made. I and many of my friends and customers have shot clear through elk, moose, bear, and one buffalo with 44 magnums, so they do not lack the power to kill big game.
And yet for all the potential power available with the 44 magnum, I also taught my daughter to shoot revolves with a 44 magnum loaded with 240 grain bullets at 625 FPS when she was 10 years old and weighed 76 pounds. She had no problem at all with it.

So I would not try to talk you out of a 454, but I would advise you to think about your real-world use that you have for the gun. If you are not going to hunt big game with it and you are not going to shoot the 454 enough to stay proficient with it (probably at least 50 rounds a month, and 200 a month is a lot better) you will find the 44 mag covers more bases for less money, and is more user friendly in every way. If you have $2000 to spend it may be better to buy a $900 44 and $1100 worth of bullets, powder, primers and brass, than to buy a Freedom 454, but that is a question only you can answer.
 
I agree with the above. It's possible to attain 1200 fps. using a 310 grain bullet in a .44 magnum. Nothing against the FA83 (I own one), but a Ruger Redhawk or Super Redhawk in ,44 magnum costs half what the FA83 costs, and can be safely carried with 6 rounds.
 
What is significantly more expensive in reloading the 454 Casull over the 44 magnum, the brass, bullets, primers, or all of it?
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A quick check on the Midway site shows me this..

.44 mag brass
Starline
$0.27 each, down to $0.20 each if you buy a large enough quantity

Hornady
$0.38 each (on sale)

Win
$0.30 each

.454 Brass
Starline
$0.43 each ($.36 each in bulk)

Hornady
$0.51 each (on sale)

So, even going the with cheapest available new .454 brass is nearly DOUBLE the cost of new .44Mag brass.

That's where the difference in the cost of reloading both calibers comes from. .44 and .45 bullets cost virtually the same, primers and powder costs are common to both, so the significant cost difference is the brass.

Like I said, I am only considering getting a 454 Casull because they are more readily available on GunBroker over the 44 magnum, at least in the Freedom Arms Model 83. If I can create loads that cover plinking to defense of life within the recoil of a 44 magnum and comparable reloading costs, I think that may be the approach I take.
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You absolutely CAN meet your desires with the .44 Magnum. And, I believe you can do it without using the uber heavy bullets. Everything that walks in North America has been stopped by the .44 Magnum, using the standard 240/250gr weight bullets.

I'll be upfront about it, I don't use, or have a use for the 300gr+ slugs. I have shot some, and for me the added recoil doesn't match the benefit advantage over the 240/250gr slugs.

If you're sold on the Freedom Arms gun, by all means get one. I don't know them well, personally, they have a reputation for being among the finest built SA revolvers that exist. Its a 5 shot in .454, isn't it? Are they 5 or 6 in .44Mag? Does that matter to you??

You are poised to jump into both big bore magnum class revolvers and reloading at the same time. There is a lot to learn, how steep do you want to make that learning curve? A gentle slope is easier to climb, too steep and its a wall.

There's literally hundred of years of experience available here in this forum, some of it will apply to your situation, some won't. Beware of information overload.

welcome to a whole new world, enjoy!
 
.44 and .45 bullets cost virtually the same,
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.....again,

The biggest difference in projectile cost is when using bullets appropriate for .454 pressures and velocities. While one can use projectiles intended for .45 colt, they are not always appropriate for .454, especially jacketed.
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Biggest problem I see when folks start to reload for .454 and .460, and from folks that have never loaded for them, is the idea that a .45 caliber bullet designed for .45 colt/.45ACP is appropriate. They also go for them first off the shelf because as you said, they aren't much more than .44 caliber bullets and are easier to find than those intended for .454 and .460. Call/e-mail the bullet companies and they will tell you the same as I did earlier. Several well known major bullet companies do not have a .45 caliber bullet they recommend for use in .454 and .460. While those .45 caliber bullets intended for .45 colt will work in the .454, if used above their intended velocities they will have poor terminal performance, may separate in the bore and will cause premature forcing cone erosion. One buys a .454 or .460 for performance.....not to save monies. If you want to save money, get the .44. As I've said on other threads on this subject. The really big bores(.454 and .460) are like a high maintenance woman, if you can't afford to take her out to eat, don't ask her out in the first place.
 
Why does it have to be a .454 Casull? Personally, if this is solely a DEFENSIVE gun (i.e. not for hunting) why not go with a .45 Colt that can handle the hot loads? I don't think there's anything that a good, hot .45 Colt load can't do to save your life that a .454 can do.

Of course, this narrows your options down to Rugers and Freedom Arms revolvers, but if you go Ruger, you'll pay $800-$850 for a double action, $650 for a single action and if you get the right models, you'll also be able to shoot .45 ACP in those guns too.

If you do reload, then there's really no reason to get the combo .45 ACP models, but if you don't it will save you money being able to plink with cheap .45 ACP.
 
First off gang, I don't care about the ammo cost so much. I reload and .45 LC, .454 Casull, or .44 Magnum & .44 Spl. I have lots of.

Now I've owned a Toklat .454 and with real .454s it is a handful. Especially one handed. But for those that like 'em, have at it. It is a real powerful gun.

But for me, I settled on my S&W 629-1 4 inch .44 magnum.

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Either with factory DPX ammo or lead 240 gr SWC hard cast at 900-1000 fps.

If I really, really worry about bears and such I'll take my Winchester Trapper .44 magnum or my Mossberg 500 Mariner with Brenneke slugs.

Deaf
 
Buck460XVR is absolutely correct about what bullets are acceptable and those that are not for the 454 and 460. I've seen proof in the form of two holes in a target made in one shot... one hole made by the bullet core and the other made by the separated jacket.

When talking jacketed bullets, Hornady XTP MAG, Barnes XPB and other similar more heavily constructed bullets are required to operate at those pressures. You can run standard 45 cal in those cartridges ***at reduced pressures***. It's not so much about the velocity as it is about the intense pressure. If it were a question of velocity, then standard 44 mags and 45 Colts fired from carbines would experience the problem as well but they don't. Regular XTPs and FTX work just fine at higher velocity from a carbine from what I've seen.

I can't speak on different cast alloys as I do not use them or have any experience with them whatsoever.

And yes, 44mag is a very capable and versatile cartridge.. I have two Smith wheelguns in 44mag and love them.
 
If it were a question of velocity, then standard 44 mags and 45 Colts fired from carbines would experience the problem as well but they don't. Regular XTPs and FTX work just fine at higher velocity from a carbine from what I've seen.
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It IS a question of velocity, AND bullet construction, together.

The .44 carbines give about 2-300fps more than the revolvers. Still within that bullets "stable" range. A different design bullet, might not be.

A .357 carbine can add 500fps (125gr) over a 6" revolver, and for a bullet designed to expand at pistol speeds, the extra is a bit too much.

You can see the same thing with a 150gr .30-30 bullet fired from a .300 magnum, or a .45-70 JSP fired from a .458 Win.

Jacketed bullets, designed to expand only behave properly within a certain velocity range, too little, they don't expand, much too much and they act like little grenades (or .22-250 varmint bullets, ;))

And I'm talking about performance AFTER impact here.
 
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