450 Marlin Recoil
- Thread starter JTD0314
- Start date
YOU hijacked the thread with your false claims. Don't whine about it now that you have been corrected.
No one is "bashing" the .450. It's a fine cartridge. You simply made a false claim regarding it.
I believe you made your decision based strictly on the availability of factory ammunition. Since the only heavy factory .45-70's are from the specialty loaders like Buffalo Bore and CorBon and are pretty expensive. That's fine and no one will blame you for that. Then you only read far enough into it to feel good about that decision. Anybody that has read any amount of loading data for the two cartridges can see that the .45/70 does what the .450 does and at less pressure. It doesn't 'need' to be loaded to the .450's pressure, although it certainly can be. As an example, your quoted Hodgdon load data from Chuck Hawk:
That same 400gr Speer bullet, by Hodgdon's own data, uses 55.0gr of H322 to drive it to 1984fps at 39,200CUP. So only 50fps slower and at 2700CUP less pressure with three more grains of powder. That's levergun data, not Ruger No. 1 data, just the bigger case with more capacity strutting its stuff at less pressure.
Buffalo Bore even shows the .450 at a slightly lower velocity (25fps) than .45/70 loads with the same bullet.
As I said before, the .450 is strictly to obtain heavy .45/70 ballistics in a standard factory cartridge that can't possibly find itself into an old Trapdoor. It holds absolutely no ballistic advantage with comparable pressure factory loads and no advantage whatsoever for the handloader.
Yes, let's.
AC,
I certainly was not bashing the .450, or touting the .45-70 over it.
Just, as mentioned, taking issue with the erroneous statement about the .450 being far more powerful than any .45-70 load.
Both have their places.
While I'm a .45-70 shooter (three rifles currently), I would have bought a nifty little Steyr boltgun in .450 Marlin I tried out a couple years ago if it'd had iron sights on it. It was a very handy big-bore brush gun & I quite liked it otherwise. I would not have hand-loaded for it & would have felt quite comfortable with factory ammo for most small to medium bear encounters.
There is absolutely nothing whatever wrong with the .450 Marlin, it's just not a hugely superior round to the .45-70.
Denis
I certainly was not bashing the .450, or touting the .45-70 over it.
Just, as mentioned, taking issue with the erroneous statement about the .450 being far more powerful than any .45-70 load.
Both have their places.
While I'm a .45-70 shooter (three rifles currently), I would have bought a nifty little Steyr boltgun in .450 Marlin I tried out a couple years ago if it'd had iron sights on it. It was a very handy big-bore brush gun & I quite liked it otherwise. I would not have hand-loaded for it & would have felt quite comfortable with factory ammo for most small to medium bear encounters.
There is absolutely nothing whatever wrong with the .450 Marlin, it's just not a hugely superior round to the .45-70.
Denis
Edward429451
Moderator
What an informative and entertaining thread. I gotta side with Craig & DPris on this.
I've never shot a .450M but I handload for my 1895G and looked at the ballistics charts for the .450M and I don't see any advantage to the .450 all things considered. The 45/70 does the same thing with lower pressure, and with the 45/70 brass & data availability vs the 450M...it's a no brainer for me.
Oh yeah, I loaded a 350 gr bullet to 1886 fps in my GG and it felt like a 12ga 3" slug. Manageable but not something you'd want to shoot more than 20 rnds from the bench with. (The trajectory charts didn't even show a real advantage to a 350 @ 1886 vs a 350 @ 1200 fps so I toned that one down some!)
Bottom line is that at 28 bucks for a box of ammo for your .450M, it sure wouldn't take long to pay for a reloading press & dies. (But if you're going to do that the 45/70 componants are a heck of a lot cheaper and more available.) Maybe it's not to late to get the 45/70 version instead?
Watch out for those factory undersized lead bullets, Marlins like fat bullets. Those .457 lead bullets leaded up my GG real bad. I assume it's the same with the .450M's.
I've never shot a .450M but I handload for my 1895G and looked at the ballistics charts for the .450M and I don't see any advantage to the .450 all things considered. The 45/70 does the same thing with lower pressure, and with the 45/70 brass & data availability vs the 450M...it's a no brainer for me.
Oh yeah, I loaded a 350 gr bullet to 1886 fps in my GG and it felt like a 12ga 3" slug. Manageable but not something you'd want to shoot more than 20 rnds from the bench with. (The trajectory charts didn't even show a real advantage to a 350 @ 1886 vs a 350 @ 1200 fps so I toned that one down some!)
Bottom line is that at 28 bucks for a box of ammo for your .450M, it sure wouldn't take long to pay for a reloading press & dies. (But if you're going to do that the 45/70 componants are a heck of a lot cheaper and more available.) Maybe it's not to late to get the 45/70 version instead?
Watch out for those factory undersized lead bullets, Marlins like fat bullets. Those .457 lead bullets leaded up my GG real bad. I assume it's the same with the .450M's.
Dirty_Harry
New member
IMO it kicks more than a 12 gauge. It is the stoutest recoiling firearm I own, however it is still very manageable.
It's funny but I always thought that velocity was based on case capacity and bullet weight, all things being equal. The "Hot" loads for the 45/70 like Buffalo, Garrett, Corbon do crank up the horse power. But if you use the same-same, powder and bullet weight you will have the same velocity, and kick assuming same rifle bla, bla, bla. Felt recoil again will be base on the same criteria, except for one major thing, stock shape!! The more drop in the stock the more facial recoil add that to horse power and wham, recoil that hurts. Remember that the good old 458 was always tested in a 24in barrel. Sold in 22, 23 , 24 in barrel. Subtract 25fps per barrel inch and velocity drops, not to 450/45-70 but closer. We ran early 458 loads over a good chrono and 2100fps-500 grn loads made 1975fps much of the time. I digress however, felt recoil is just that what a shooter feels, some more than others. The lbs of recoil and and gun shape, weight, etc. all will play a part. Have fun with the 450/45-70 do. Doc
The case capacity is where the difference is between the two. The slightly lower case capacity of the .450 produces more pressure. Smaller capacity equals more pressure for similar velocities with less powder. More capacity equals more powder for the same velocity at less pressure.
Kinda like how .375WCF shooters use .38/55 brass for a little more case capacity.
bluestreakrem
Inactive
While both rounds can produce the same energy levels using the same weight bullets, what no one seems to understand (or know) is that the 450 is originaly designed to handle those pressure levels where the 45-70 was not. Yes you can jack the 45-70 up to 450 levels, but the 45-70 brass is weaker than the 450 brass and will wear out faster. You could do the same thing by jacking up a 308 to 30-06 levels..........but I wouldn't advise it because the original catridge case is not designed for it.
The case belt on the 450 is not the only physical difference between them. The web and wall thickness of the 450 brass is thicker than the 45-70. That's why it holds slightly less powder than a 45-70. Those three features were DESIGNED INTO the cartridge to handle that kind of pressure. The brass case is the most important difference between the two rounds and I certainly prefer the heavier brass of the 450 at these levels.
The case belt on the 450 is not the only physical difference between them. The web and wall thickness of the 450 brass is thicker than the 45-70. That's why it holds slightly less powder than a 45-70. Those three features were DESIGNED INTO the cartridge to handle that kind of pressure. The brass case is the most important difference between the two rounds and I certainly prefer the heavier brass of the 450 at these levels.
It depends. If you compare ballistics of SAAMI level factory ammo the 450 is far more powerful. If you compare ballistics of 450 ammo to custom or handloaded 45-70 ammo, then they are very similar.
The whole idea behind the 450 Marlin was to provide SAAMI factory ammo that would compare with warm 45-70 handloads, which it did.
Unlicensed Dremel
Moderator
It's the same as level 2 .45-70, which is to say, stout bordering on harsh depending on rifle weight. It will let you know you're alive - seriously.... about like a 3.0" 12 ga turkey load in an auto-loading shotgun, or a smidge less.
Old thread, but to put some numbers on it. a 450 Marlin from a 7.5 lb rifle firing a 400 gr bullet @ 2000 fps generates 44 ft lbs of recoil. There are some loads showing 400 gr bullets from both 450 and hot 45-70 @ 2100 fps, that is closer to 50 ft lbs
Just for perspective typical recoil
308 15-17 ft lbs
30-06 17-20 ft lbs
300 mag 26-30 ft lbs.
12 ga slug 30 ft lbs
Just for perspective typical recoil
308 15-17 ft lbs
30-06 17-20 ft lbs
300 mag 26-30 ft lbs.
12 ga slug 30 ft lbs
Old thread, but I feel like chiming in anyway.
I have a Marlin 1895M with an 18 1/2" barrel. The extra 5 1/2 inches on the barrel (A/C Guy with 24" barrel) must make a huge difference if you think it kicks like a 20 ga. The recoil IMO is very comparable to my 12 ga single shot with slugs, and it is a light gun so you feel every bit of the recoil.
For hunting I love the .450, but it is not the gun to go to the range and burn a couple hundred rounds through. Even being used to the gun, by the time I get 15-20 rounds in I am just wasting ammo because my accuracy sucks due to my sore shoulder.
I chose the .450 because I do not reload, I love the round but can see how a handloader could have more versatility with the 45-70. Also, nobody else I knew had one, and I have to admit I do like just being different. I just hope the round doesn't go the way of the Dodo and leave me hanging.
I have a Marlin 1895M with an 18 1/2" barrel. The extra 5 1/2 inches on the barrel (A/C Guy with 24" barrel) must make a huge difference if you think it kicks like a 20 ga. The recoil IMO is very comparable to my 12 ga single shot with slugs, and it is a light gun so you feel every bit of the recoil.
For hunting I love the .450, but it is not the gun to go to the range and burn a couple hundred rounds through. Even being used to the gun, by the time I get 15-20 rounds in I am just wasting ammo because my accuracy sucks due to my sore shoulder.
I chose the .450 because I do not reload, I love the round but can see how a handloader could have more versatility with the 45-70. Also, nobody else I knew had one, and I have to admit I do like just being different. I just hope the round doesn't go the way of the Dodo and leave me hanging.
Dirty_Harry
New member
Back from the dead.....
I now have a ported 450, whereas back in 08 I had a non ported model. The porting doesnt really do that much for recoil.
Super fun gun to shoot and very accurate. Problem is, it is very hard to find anything but LE ammo for it.
I now have a ported 450, whereas back in 08 I had a non ported model. The porting doesnt really do that much for recoil.
Super fun gun to shoot and very accurate. Problem is, it is very hard to find anything but LE ammo for it.