.45 vs 5.7 vs 5.56

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The .45 ACP is a fine pistol round to be sure but it is not even in the room as the .556 Nato in terms of tearing things up, like my insides. If your choice would be to take a solid and equal hit with the 223 rather than the .45 you are in fantasy land. Please come home to us, just walk toward the light.
 
The .223 is a significantly more effective round at just about any range than the other two...it's like saying M-80, frag grenade, or 500lb clusterbomb.
 
Now here is my personal oppinion with research and no quoted statistics: I have read the 5.56 is an all around good round capable of most everything but no real expert in any. That being said it gets the job done in every situation but at times other rounds can be frefered by some but not by all. For instance I have read that the yaw period of the round is within 100 yards that the round has such force and velocity that it can simply punch a .223 size hole through someone without tumbling or fragmenting which could be a problem at close range
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The question you ask is akin to asking which fighter you'd rather take a right hand punch from. Battam weight, or heavy weight?

At rfle velocities, even the .223, with a number of types of ammo, produces temporary cavities that stretch tissue, some vital organs, and blood vessels beyond their ability to revover. That cavity can produce a worse wound than that made by the path of the bullet. That's without bullet yaw and tumbling bullets, or bullets that fragment into different pieces producing yet more wound damage.

The effect of the stretch (temporary) cavity at extended ranges from, let's say, a short barreled M4 carbine, is lessened with the decreased velocity.

Don't think anyone in their right mind would choose (quite hypothetically) being shot with any high powered rifle bullet, even fmj, over the type of pistol bullets used for SD.
 
ok i think i understand what you are saying, but then why would any special forces or swat teams use anything but .223? if its for the compact factor the could just sbr their carbines, which i know many do but? i mean over penatration could be an issue but, if you are coming from one direction doing a breach, you wouldnt have to worry about a crossfire, the recoil isnt all that different, from a .45 its probably more. If that is the case, then why their existance? I am slightly confused.
 
45. . .Big holes hurt. Over 50 yards, 5.56 has a huge advantage as you are going to be hit with a bigger load of energy and the 45 would be less likely to expand.
 
This isn't even close and Art's comments are spot on. I use 45 Colt rounds to shoot small game specifically because they don't ruin meat. They simply make a 45 caliber hole. My 22-250 will make a skunk literally explode. Think about that for a moment. The 22-250 is even faster than the 223. Anyone who tells you that high velocity will cause a round to simply blow through without expanding and just make a small hole is someone you should immediately stop listening to. As velocity increases, so does the rate of expansion. This is why magnum rifle rounds led to the development of and so often use premium, controlled expansion bullets while rounds such as the 30-30, 35 Remington, and 45-70 typically use and work just fine with plain old cup and core bullets.

The 223 wins hands down.
 
ok i think i understand what you are saying, but then why would any special forces or swat teams use anything but .223? if its for the compact factor the could just sbr their carbines, which i know many do but? i mean over penatration could be an issue but, if you are coming from one direction doing a breach, you wouldnt have to worry about a crossfire, the recoil isnt all that different, from a .45 its probably more. If that is the case, then why their existance? I am slightly confused.
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You keep comparing a high powered rifle cartridge with pistol cartridges. There is no comparison. Pistol cartridges used with a sub machine gun are a different matter at close quarters. They are effective, and produce little recoil.
 
You keep comparing a high powered rifle cartridge with pistol cartridges. There is no comparison. Pistol cartridges used with a sub machine gun are a different matter at close quarters. They are effective, and produce little recoil.
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just a couple things I would like to point out

1. 223 is NOT a high powered rifle cartridge, it IS a light carbine cartridge.

2. a 9mm and 45ACP actually provides a very similar amount of recoil from a carbine or SMG as a 223. there is almost no discernible difference in the behavior of an assault weapon chambered in 5.7, 223 and 45 once you flip that selector to frenzy mode.

3. if all of these rounds are fired from 25 yards then you re robbing the 223s advantage over the other 2 and playing to the 5.7 and 45ACPs strengths. look up old war pictures from WWII and vietnam, look at the difference in wounds caused by a close range shot from a thompson submachine gun(45ACP) and up close M16(223). both cause horrendous wounds and both are well within the criteria for lethal application. only once you move the target out to longer ranges does the 223 shine and 5.7 and 45 fall at the wayside.
 
tahuna, survivability is in large part dependent on tissue damage and bleed-out. The .45 ACP does the least. The .223 does the most.

If I gotta get shot, let it be with the non-expanding bullet...
 
Now here is my personal oppinion with research and no quoted statistics: I have read the 5.56 is an all around good round capable of most everything but no real expert in any. That being said it gets the job done in every situation but at times other rounds can be frefered by some but not by all. For instance I have read that the yaw period of the round is within 100 yards that the round has such force and velocity that it can simply punch a .223 size hole through someone without tumbling or fragmenting which could be a problem at close range.
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I think you have that backwards. ;)

The yaw periods is determined by the shape/construction of the bullet and the speed. The faster it is going and the further the center of gravity is from the tip, the earlier it will yaw. The slower the it is traveling and the closer the CG is to the tip, the less likely it will be to tumble and the more likely it will be to continue to travel nose forward.

Fragmentation is a function of bullet construction and speed. The thinner the jacket is and if it has stress risers in it, like a cannelure, the more likely the bullet is to fragment when stressed by the bending forces imparted when it yaws in a dense media like water/flesh. The faster the bullet is traveling when it "swaps ends" the more force there will be, and the more likely the bullet will be to break apart.

The .223 is usally considered better the closer the range is because of the velocity threshold for required for tumbling and fragmentation. :D

I would personally rather get shot with a .45 than any rifle round.

As for bullet diameters, don't forget the REAL dimensions you are talking about here.

Almost 1/4 of an inch versus almost 1/2 of an inch...
 
The .223 is usally considered better the closer the range is because of the velocity threshold for required for tumbling and fragmentation.
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What is the threshold velocity for fragmentation?
(does the FiveseveN make it?)
 
What is the threshold velocity for fragmentation?
(does the FiveseveN make it?)
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With 55gr M193 (FMJ w/cannelure) it is around 2,700 fps (or maybe 2,500), I believe. There is alot of variation there, but I think anything over 2,700 is considered "reliable" anything below that and it might or might not depending on density of target and bullet construction. If you change bullet construction, it changes as well. A M885 performs differently than a M995 vs Mk262 vs Mk318 vs M855A1. The physics are still the same, just the "when" that changes.

I have only held a P90/FiveseveN, I have never fired it or even seen a loose bullet to see how it is constructed. I have never seen one of those rounds taken apart and measured.

If it has a thin jacket and narrow for it's caliber construction, it should. If it's CG is up close to the tip it might take a while before the front end slows down enough for the rear to want to swap and there might not be enough velocity left cause fragmentation. This is what happens with the .223 at long range. It still flips, but it doesn't fragment, it just sneaks out the back base first.;)

Of course this all based on it being a FMJ round. A ballistic tip or soft point/hollow point round has completely different characteristics. :D

I do know of a SWAT team down in Florida that used them for a while in P90s and they didn't like them at all. I am not sure what kind of round they were using though.
 
why would any special forces or swat teams use anything but .223?
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I was under the impression that most SWAT teams use the 5.56/.223 in carbine length firearms. I suspect they use a variety of pistol cartridges in different pistols but I don't think they'd use pistol cartridges in carbines.

I think very few SWAT teams use the 5.7 and the number is trending down.
 
Quote:
why would any special forces or swat teams use anything but .223?
I was under the impression that most SWAT teams use the 5.56/.223 in carbine length firearms. I suspect they use a variety of pistol cartridges in different pistols but I don't think they'd use pistol cartridges in carbines.

I think very few SWAT teams use the 5.7 and the number is trending down.
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swat teams generally use a combination of shotguns(lockbusters) such as the mossberg 500 or remington 870(12 gauge), handguns of various calibers, assault rifles such as M4s(223) and submachine guns such as the heckler and koch MP5(in 9mm or 45ACP). a knew of a few that tried PS90s but the cost to gain ratio was just too high.
 
Between the 3, I'd have to go with .45 ACP. If it was at further distances, I'd go with the .223 but at 25 yards I believe the .45 ACP is better. If you're willing to go with a different caliber, .45-70. I'd rather have a slower, bigger bullet for close ranges but with plenty of power.
 
The .223/5.56 will fragment.

The others wont.

Please dont shoot me with any, but esp not the 5.56.
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I'm pretty sure all the 5.7 available for civilian use is ballistic tip...I think those fragment
 
Seems to me that since the introduction of close quarters (10-14") AR platforms, 9mm and .45 SMGs are much less common.

If .45 were so much better at close range, one would think there would have been no market for short-barreled 5.56mm rifles.

I suspect the only reason some teams may have pistol caliber SMGs is because they work better with suppressors. I don't think any shooters pick pistol caliber SMGs over SBRs for terminal ballistics.
 
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