.45 Scholfield in .45Colt
- Thread starter Tinbucket
- Start date
ShootistPRS
New member
Yes, you can fire the shorter cartridges in the 45 Colt. The cavalry did so for years. As far as cost saving I can only tell you that in my area it would be difficult to find the Schofield and when it is available it costs more than the 45 Colt ammo.
Aguila Blanca
Staff
Ditto ditto.
If you reload, Starline sells .45 Schofield brass. Of course, if you reload you can just as easily reload .45 Colt brass.
If you reload, Starline sells .45 Schofield brass. Of course, if you reload you can just as easily reload .45 Colt brass.
ditto x3
The Schofield is more of a niche round than the .45 Colt. Less demand, less produced, HIGHER COST.
Works fine in .45 Colt chamber, but is NOT cheaper. Just the opposite.
If you have .45 Schofield ammo you can use it in a .45 Colt pistol just fine. Might not feed in a lever gun, I don't know.
If you are going to BUY Schofield ammo to shoot in a .45 Colt pistol, you're wasting money, and getting a less powerful round in the process.
The Schofield is more of a niche round than the .45 Colt. Less demand, less produced, HIGHER COST.
Works fine in .45 Colt chamber, but is NOT cheaper. Just the opposite.
If you have .45 Schofield ammo you can use it in a .45 Colt pistol just fine. Might not feed in a lever gun, I don't know.
If you are going to BUY Schofield ammo to shoot in a .45 Colt pistol, you're wasting money, and getting a less powerful round in the process.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Howdy
One of my favorite subjects.
Unlike these other fellows I am going to answer your question with pretty much yes, with an exception.
45 Schofield has always had a larger rim diameter than 45 Colt. That is because 45 Schofield was developed for the S&W Schofield model which used an extractor to pull the empties out of the cylinder by their rims. The rims had to be large enough for an extractor to grab. 45 Colt on the other hand was originally ejected from the SAA by an ejector rod which poked the empties out from the inside. So for 45 Colt rim diameter was not an issue and many early 45 Colt cartridges had very tiny rims, just enough to keep the round from slipping into the chamber.
Fast forward to today and the rim of the 45 Colt is a bit bigger than it used to be, but still smaller than the rim of 45 Schofield. SAAMI Spec Max rim diameter for 45 Colt is .512, SAAMI Spec Max rim diameter for 45 Schofield is .520. I just grabbed a bunch of Starline 45 Schofield cases and they are running pretty close to the max at about .519-.520. Grabbed some Starline 45 Colt and they are running around .508-.509, a bit under the Max.
Most modern revolvers can handle the larger rim of the 45 Schofield just fine. Except the 'original model' Vaquero. I have a few of those puppies. There is less clearance around the ratchet teeth on the old Vaqueros than there is on a Colt or clone. That is because the ratchet teeth of the old Vaquero were cut from a simple circular boss, while the ratchet teeth of the Colt and clones have a scalloped design which affords more clearance around the cartridge rims. Cutting the teeth the way Ruger was cutting them involved less machining steps, most likely that is why they did it that way.
One of my 'original model' Vaqueros absolutely would not accept a 45 Schofield round in one chamber because of this clearance issue. They chambered fine in the other five, but would not chamber in one hole. Yes, something was slightly off in dimensions, but there you have it. A few minutes work with a file remedied the situation, but as built, that gun would not accept a 45 Schofield in one chamber. (I happened to discover this problem at a CAS match. Luckily I had a file handy and spent some quality time with that revolver during lunch break)
Here are a couple of photos to illustrate the problem. In this photo, the cylinder on the left is from the 'original model' Vaquero. You can see how little clearance there is for the rims of both 45 Colt and 45 Schofield. The cylinder on the right is from a 2nd Gen Colt. If you look closely, you can see the 'scalloped' shape of the ratchet teeth on the Colt.
I recently bought a New Vaquero chambered for 45 Colt. Ruger apparently learned something from the shape of the 'original model' Vaquero ratchet teeth design and has cut more clearance into the teeth. More machining required this way, but there is plenty of clearance for both rounds.
I never buy commercially loaded 45 Colt or 45 Schofield, I load all of them myself. Usually with Black Powder. But the other guys are correct, if you are looking for factory 45 Schofield ammo it is harder to find, and probably going to be more expensive than 45 Colt. And as far as I know, 45 Schofield is only available in Cowboy loads, while 45 Colt is available in all kinds of loadings.
Probably much more than you wanted to know, huh?
Jim Watson
New member
Q for DJ: Was the .45 Government loaded by FA really truly .45 S&W? I have read reports to indicate it had a somewhat smaller nominal rim diameter at the high side of .45 Colt to ensure it would chamber in the SAA.
Bob Wright
New member
I am not the knowledgeable Driftwood, but here is what I have been able to discern:
.45 Cartridges loaded by Frankford Arsenal for the Schofield revolver do indeed have slightly larger rim diameters, at least for the brass cased rounds. Commercial .45 Smith & Wesson and .45 Colt Government rounds run closer to .45 Colt rim diameters. And the short cased .45 Colt seems to use the S&W case:
Headstamps of the above cartridges:
My observations from limited specimens.
Bob Wright
.45 Cartridges loaded by Frankford Arsenal for the Schofield revolver do indeed have slightly larger rim diameters, at least for the brass cased rounds. Commercial .45 Smith & Wesson and .45 Colt Government rounds run closer to .45 Colt rim diameters. And the short cased .45 Colt seems to use the S&W case:
Headstamps of the above cartridges:
My observations from limited specimens.
Bob Wright
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Driftwood Johnson
New member
Howdy
Don't really know too much about official designations or official dimensions of the antique cartridges. I only have my own small cartridge collection to go by.
According to Jerry Kuhnhausen, who should know, in his book The Colt Single Action Revolvers, A Shop Manual, the Benet primed round for the Schofield revolver was called Revolver, Ball Cartridge, Caliber .45, M1875. 1875 is of course the year that S&W first produced the Schofield model. I have a feeling this round later got the more generalized name of 45 Schofield. It was also referred to at times as 45 S&W.
I only have two of these rounds in my collection. I have a box of 20 of the Benet primed 45 Colts in my collection.
In this photo, left to right, the cartridges are a modern 45 Colt, a Benet Primed 45 Colt made at the Frankford Arsenal in 1874, A Benet Primed 45 Schofield, I assume made at the Frankford Arsenal, and a modern 45 Schofield round. Yes, I use a very stubby bullet in my 45 Schofield rounds.
Working left to right, the body diameter of a modern 45 Colt from Starline is about .478, rim diameter is .508. Remember I said Max rim diameter is .512. The cannelures near the rim of the Benet cartridges distort the body of the round somewhat, but both have body diameters of about .478. Rim diameter on the Benet primed 45 Colt is only about .502. Rim diameter on my two Benet primed Schofield rounds is .517, pretty close to the modern Max of .520
Here is a photo of five modern 45 Schofield rounds and one original Benet primed round in the cylinder of an original Schofield revolver. Plenty of clearance.
I don't own a 1st Gen Colt chambered for 45 Colt, but here is the cylinder from a 2nd Gen. Next to the modern 45 Schofield round is a Benet primed 45 Schofield round. Next to the modern 45 Colt round is a Benet primed 45 Colt round. Plenty of clearance. That's about all I can say on the subject.
That Frankford Arsenal Benet-primed .45 Colt is fairly rare. When the Army adopted the Schofield, even though on a limited basis, it was obvious that having two different length revolver rounds was not a good idea, so Frankford changed all their revolver cartridge production to the shorter round and that was all they issued through the end of the SAA era, even after the Schofield was withdrawn from service.
The Cartridge, Ball, Revolver, Caliber .45, Model 1909, had a larger rim for use in the swing-out cylinder Model 1909 revolver, AKA the New Service. Those cartridges (made only only by Frankford) are often confused with rounds for the old SAA, but only three of them will fit in an SAA cylinder, and they are too long for the Schofield.
Jim
The Cartridge, Ball, Revolver, Caliber .45, Model 1909, had a larger rim for use in the swing-out cylinder Model 1909 revolver, AKA the New Service. Those cartridges (made only only by Frankford) are often confused with rounds for the old SAA, but only three of them will fit in an SAA cylinder, and they are too long for the Schofield.
Jim
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Howdy Again
They may be rare, but I found this box of twenty a couple of years ago. Notice they were made in 1874, and the powder charge has been reduced to 30 grains.
The round all the way on the right in this photo is the 1909 version of 45 Colt. Notice how wide the rim is. It is .538 in diameter. Much wider than the current Max of .512. Notice how small most of the rims are on these old 45 Colt cartridges, except the modern round all the way on the left.
The headstamp on the round, F A 12 13, means it was made at the Franford Arsenal in December of 1913. And yes, it fits fine in the cylinder of this New Service. The rims were extra wide for the extractor of this revolver. If I had more, they would fit in all the chambers without interfering with each other. Although, the extractor of this gun works fine with modern 45 Colt ammo too.
As James K said, if I had more of them, only 3 would fit in this SAA cylinder. The rims would interfere with each other if they were placed in neighboring chambers.
Jim Watson
New member
Colt made SAAs and Bisleys in .476 Enfield (.530" rim) and .455 Webley (.535" rim)
A British writer said he had determined, with the aid of the Rolls Royce toolroom, that chambers in those calibres diverged from front to rear to give enough set-out for the large rims.
A British writer said he had determined, with the aid of the Rolls Royce toolroom, that chambers in those calibres diverged from front to rear to give enough set-out for the large rims.
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Interesting
Kenny Howell did the same thing when he developed a conversion cylinder for firing 45 Colt (or 45 Schofield) in a 44 caliber replica Remington Cap & Ball revolver. The distance from center of the cylinder to the center of the bore was not great enough to allow six cartridges to chamber without their rims overlapping. So he angled the chambers out about 1/2 degree to allow the rounds to chamber without the rims over lapping.
He even obtained a patent on the idea.
Kenny Howell did the same thing when he developed a conversion cylinder for firing 45 Colt (or 45 Schofield) in a 44 caliber replica Remington Cap & Ball revolver. The distance from center of the cylinder to the center of the bore was not great enough to allow six cartridges to chamber without their rims overlapping. So he angled the chambers out about 1/2 degree to allow the rounds to chamber without the rims over lapping.
He even obtained a patent on the idea.
Bob Wright
New member
Just for fun, here are two M-1909 cartridges loaded in a New Frontier (close enough?) cylinder:
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Just have to tease me with that New Frontier, huh Bob?
Bob Wright
New member
Drift, my Friend, this is a .45 Colt.
Bob Wright
Bob Wright
Driftwood Johnson
New member
Ooops.