45 long colt cowboy ammo for self defense

[Webleymkv]

With the lighter bullets, you can move them up to 1600 fps, and still not have too much penetration. That energy has to go somewhere, and, I would NOT want to be the one to find out where...

Careful now Socrates, the Facklerites will soon arrive with torches, pitchforks, and links to firearmstactical.com.

Personally, I think the .45 Colt suffers from the same problem as the .44 Special in that there aren't many HP loads that are "just right." Everything seems to be either severely downloaded, uses light bullets, or is .44 Magnum level hunting ammo. A good lead or semi-jacketed 250grn+ HP at 1000-1100 fps from a 4" barrel would be ideal IMHO. Outside of that, Federal's 225grn LSWCHP would be my choice.

 

[Sarge]

With the lighter bullets, you can move them up to 1600 fps, and still not have too much penetration. That energy has to go somewhere, and, I would NOT want to be the one to find out where...

Since this comes up frequently in discussions of defense loads, I'm going to point out something that seems painfully obvious- to me at least.

We are talking .45 Colt here, which probably means somebody's CAS gun; in fact the OP references CAS loads. Maybe a Taurus Judge, etc. Probably not a Freedom 454 Casull or a Ruger SRH.

The majority of .45 Colt revolvers are not suitable for those loads. The typical recreational shooter can't handle them, and they don't want to bear the expense, flash and blast to become competent with them. I have killed deer with the Sierra .45/240/JHC at 1350, which is well under your 1600 fps recommendation; while the recoil was tolerable the muzzle flash was mighty, and my ears (as well as another fella's, who I was hunting near) rang for the rest of the day. The terminal effect was good; but it wasn't a lightning-strike kill, either. I know guys who do just as well with a big .45 SWC, at 900 fps.

It isn't remotely necessary to employ Casull-level loads in order to make the .45 Colt work well against a human antagonist. That's the beauty of this old centurion; it works pretty well in its original, black powder format. We could argue about it I suppose, but it's hardly necessary. I have 135 years of history to back my position.

See Gunsmoke for further

 

[9mmhpfan]

I would just like to thank everyone who contributed to this OP. Many varied opinons give me many different options to choose from.

 

[Socrates]

I am not relying on my old model vaquero with 4 3/4 inch barrel as primary self defense weapon in a handgun platform ( Steyr M9A1 9mm fills this role) I wanted to have some ammo for it for a just in case scenrio.

Sarge did not read the OG posters comments.

Or mine:

Old model Vaquero's are strong guns. I'd look at this load for your purpose:
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunitio...ult.htm#45colt
Item 3C: 260 gr. J.H.P. (1450 fps / M.E. 1214 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 350 lbs.)

My lighter bullets meant 165-200 grains, and, due to their light weight, in a relatively heavy Vaquero, they don't kick much, at all.

You can move a 240 grain bullet, at 1400 fps, with 45ACP pressure. Why anyone would want to turn their beautiful 45 Colt into a 9mm with these factory loads really escapes me...

 

[Phantom Captain]

My single action .45 is in the drawer next to my bed. So yes, it's one of my HD guns.

I cast and reload my own using only old school 30 grains of Goex BP. I use a pure soft lead 250 grain bullet out of a Lyman .452 mold. Cases are Remington with CCI primers. Like I said, 30 grains of 3f Goex in each. I wouldn't want to get hit with one of them, that's for sure. It's a wicked hard hitting round.

 

[tatso7]

I killed a 200 pounder hog, 204 lbs to be exact per the meat processor who butchered that thing for me, with four shots of Remington Express 45 LC rounds ( 250 grains, 860 fps @ 410 ftlbs of KE per Midway USA Cat. ) out of an 1858 Remington replica revolver converted to fire 45LC rounds. I shoot the hog at ten yards, three to the kill zone and one to the head. The hog moved only about six feet from where it originaly stand before it belly up dead. The butcher recovered two expanded slug. I'll post up pics later if I can find it ( this happens 3 years ago in central Cali while bowhunting). Now a BG will PROBABLY end up like the pig but I hate to find that out.

 

[Socrates]

THAT is some fast shooting...

 

[tatso7]

I've found the pictures but the dang scanner just wouldnt work. Anyways, that one hunting experience I will never forget. Fast shooting ? Thats years of sass practice put to work and you'll never know what you can do when you're scared.

 

[Jim March]

One of the things that bothers me about light HP's for caliber, like 200 grain 45 HPs, is they need to be going at least 1200 fps to get adequate penetration.

A few years ago this was true. The best modern slugs expand very well down to 900fps or even less...the Speer Gold Dot large-cavity hollowpoint designs being probably the best, at least in this caliber so far.

Hornady is working on a low-speed expander now that has the potential to run with the Gold Dot and possibly beat it with some more development. So far it's sold in 380, 38 and 38+P but if they extend this across other bores they might give Speer a good run for the money. See also:

http://www.thehighroad.us/showthread.php?t=404295

 

[Socrates]

Jim: adequate PENETRATION, not expansion.
Bullets now open up sooner, which, like opening a parachute, seriously decreases both velocity, and penetration. Lack of penetration is now the issue with light 45 Colt loads. I think the old guys had the right idea: 1000 fps, at least, soft lead, gas checked if necessary, or JHP.

A 250-260 grain bullet going 1200-1600 fps, is going to give you both expansion, and penetration

 

[Socrates]

This is a GREAT post on why I buy Buffalo Bore and Doubletap:

Jim March on buffalobore
OK, wait a sec here.

We are NOT seeing reports of Buffalo Bore, Doubletap or Grizzly Ammo rounds trashing guns. Now part of that is likely that they're premium fodder and few can afford huge diets of the stuff. It's also likely that people are shooting premium ammo out of premium guns...this is connoisseur-grade stuff.

But what Tim Sundles at BuffBore claims he's doing is using very modern quality powders combined with pressure test gear to do "long duration burns" at peak pressure, without going over max.

In other words, say you've got a caliber that tops out at 35,000psi (SAAMI) like the 357Mag. Tim is trying to bring the pressure up to 35k or close to it as soon as he can and then "hold it there" long enough to put some real heat on the slug, yet without doing a pressure spike that blows the gun.

In theory, 35k for 2 milliseconds will net you as much bullet energy as 70k for 1, yet the latter risks blowing the gun to bits while the former doesn't.

We saw this in spades during the transition from black powder to smokeless. Two loads pushing the same bullet at the same speed means the same "bullet energy", but the longer burn time of "holy black" meant peak pressure was way lower. Smokeless loads blew a lot of old guns up.

You can ONLY explore the absolute ragged edge of the envelope the way BuffBore and the like do with pressure test gear that handloaders don't have access to.

So Freedom, the fact that YOUR hot loads massively exceeded sane pressures doesn't mean that a load from a pro ammo house will.

Now with all THAT said, my vintage Charter Arms Undercover 38Spl is rated for only a moderate +P diet if at all. Ain't no way I'm going to feed it Buffalo Bore 38+P!

I *will* however feed BuffBore's highest-end 357s into my Ruger New Vaquero with no qualms at all. It's cylinder is slightly beefier than a GP100's cylinder...which along with the 686 is also a gun I consider strong enough for the wildest stuff BuffBore and the other two "thermonuclear club" companies mentioned make. I used some of DoubleTap's gnarliest 357s on a bowling ball once, split it in half with one shot and send pieces of the concrete core flying over 20 paces.

Those guys are not kidding around, but they're also not blowing people's guns up.
__________________
Jim March

I've also heard some of the guys do duplex powders to really get on the bleeding edge... Look at DoubleTaps 10mm and 45 ACP loads sometime...

 

[dogngun]

I sometimes carry a SAA revolver. It's loaded with 5 255 grain soft lead semi wadcutters traveling about 900fps. Slow to reload, yes, but the first five aggressors are in bad trouble.

Try the .45 Colt section here: www.ammodirect.com/default.aspx?

Everything I ever bought from them is first rate.

mark

 

[Gohon]

That's because the 45LC rim was too narrow for reliable extraction.

If there was a problem then with extraction there would be a problem today. The fact is the reason there were no rifles produced for the 45 Colt was because Colt retained the proprietary rights on the 45 Colt and refused to allow anyone else to use it. Since Colt produced nothing but revolvers....no rifles. Other companies then went to the 44-40 and other rounds. By the time the patent expired the rifle/pistol same ammo combo had run its course and was out of fad. Cowboy action shooting played a major role in seeing the 45 Colt produced in a rifle.

 

[Sport45]

The benefit of using a large caliber round with real black powder is that you can create your own smoke screen for cover when you shoot it.

Seriously, I wouldn't feel undergunned with my 5 1/2" Redhawk and my 260gr SWC range fodder. I agree the modern HP ammo would be better.

 

[Mike Irwin]

"If there was a problem then with extraction there would be a problem today. The fact is the reason there were no rifles produced for the 45 Colt was because Colt retained the proprietary rights on the 45 Colt and refused to allow anyone else to use it."

Sorry, but I do not think that that is correct at all.

The primary designer of the .45 Long Colt cartridge wasn't just Colt, the Springfield Armory had much to do with development of the cartridge, as did, IIRC, Union Metallic Cartridge Company.

As far as I know, Colt maintained no exclusive rights to the cartridge and took out no patents or trademarks on it.

The problem with extraction in early rifles was a real one.

Early cartridges did not employ an extractor cut above the rim as today's do. That made it very difficult for the extractor on a rifle to grab the very small rim. If the cartridge was sticking in the chamber, it was virtually guaranteed that the extractor would either slip off the rim or would tear through it.

Rifles chambering the .45 Long Colt became a lot more viable when ammunition companies all began using deep-draw solid head cases. This allowed the extractor cut above the rim.

But, by the time that that was adoped by the large ammunition companies (after World War I) the day of the Winchester pistol-caliber cartridge rifle had largely gone the way of the old west, so there was no purpose in chambering the .45 Long Colt in a rifle.

The most telling evidence that this problem did exist?

The Colt Lightning Rifle.

The original chambering for the Lightning Rifle was .44-40. Colt never chambered it for .45 Long Colt. The extractor problem.

 

[Gohon]

As far as I know, Colt maintained no exclusive rights to the cartridge and took out no patents or trademarks on it.

http://www.riflesnguns.com/manufacturers/colt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colt's_Manufacturing_Company

http://www.indopedia.org/Colt_Firearms.html

http://inventors.about.com/cs/inventorsalphabet/a/machine_4.htm

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Colt,+Samuel

Samuel Colt held the patent on the Colt 45 and never gave the rights to anyone to produce the Colt 45 except once on a subcontract for the military until he was able to get his plant back in operation. Thus no 45 Colts were manufactured by anyone, revolver or rifle except Colt and Colt was not in the business of manufacturing rifles until after Colts death. S&W attempted to get in the game with the shorter 45 Schofield but it never caught on like the Colt 45.

The only thing the Colt Lightning rifle and the Colt 45 share is the name Colt. The Colt Lightning rifle was chambered in the .44 Winchester Center Fire (.44 WCF) in 1884, later to be called the 44-40. That was Colts attempt to compete with the Winchester lever action.

Not saying my information is 100% correct but I know I'm not the only one that believes this to be correct.

 

[Mike Irwin]

OK, maybe I'm missing something, but there is NOTHING in any of the links that you have posted that indicates that Colt held proprietary rights to, and refused to allow other companies to chamber, the .45 Colt CARTRIDGE in their firearms.

Nothing I have ever seen supports that.

What Colt did hold, and which every other company held on their designs as well, were patents covering the technology of their firearms.

"Colt was not in the business of manufacturing rifles."

Wrong. Colt most decidedly manufactured rifles. Over 185,000 of them at their plant in Hartford, in fact, from about 1884 to 1904.

Colt Lightning Rifles were in direct competition with Winchester's lever action rifles.

There were three frame sizes and chambered cartridges ranging from .22 Long Rifle to .50-95.

Colt also both manufactured AND imported shotguns in this time frame, as well.

This led to a very interesting meeting between Colt and Winchester officials.

Winchester hired Hugo Borchardt to design several revolvers, which were far superior to anything that Colt had at that time.

Winchester's representatives gave Colt a business proposition -- Colt could continue to manufacture Lightning rifles, but introduce no new rifle or shotguns, and Winchester would shelve plans to manufacture and market the Borchardt revolvers.

Colt agreed, and didn't re-enter the rifle market until after World War II.

"S&W attempted to get in the game with the shorter 45 Schofield but it never caught on like the Colt 45."

Sort of.

By the time that Colt landed the contract for military revolvers in 1873 Smith & Wesson was already producing huge numbers of revolvers for the Russian Empire.

Smith would have liked to have had the American military contract to go along with their foreign contracts, but no one in the company considered them to be vital. It would have been a prestige thing for the company, nothing else.

The .45 Schofield cartridge came about for one reason, and one reason alone -- the frame on the Number 3 revolver was too short to accept the .45 Long Colt cartridge, and Smith & Wesson had no intention of redesigning its gun and impacting its Russian contracts for the potential of US military contracts.

So, to enter the competition, Smith & Wesson developed the shortened .45 round. It was an expediency to accommodate the physical limitations of their design, not because Colt refused to allow them to chamber it.

S&W provided something like 3,000 No. 3 revolvers to the US military by 1874-75.

In 1878 the military came back to S&W and asked for another 8,000 revolvers chambered in .45 Schofield.

Smith & Wesson's response? Sorry, we're up to our ears in Russian, Turkish, and Japanese revolver production, and we won't be able to make such a short run for you.


Finally, once again, Colt never chambered any of their Lightning Rifles in .45 Long Colt. They chambered them for Winchester cartridges like the .44-40 and .38-40 which were also popular sellers in their Colt revolvers.

The reason Colt never chambered their own rifle for the .45 Long Colt?

The rim. The extractor could not grab the rim. Had the round been designed with the same sort of rim configuration as the .44-40, things would have been a lot different.

 

[Mike Irwin]

Oh, one last thing...


Sam Colt held NO patents on the Colt .45 revolver (the Model 1873 Peacemaker).

Sam Colt died on January 10, 1862.

And, all of his patents, the ones that he had personally held, had been assigned to his company long before his death.

 

[Gohon]

Mike, all we are doing is repeating the same thing over and over to each other but each taking a different interruption on the writings. In my last post I specifically said "Colt was not in the business of manufacturing rifles until after Colts death" and "The Colt Lightning rifle was chambered in the .44 Winchester Center Fire (.44 WCF) in 1884, later to be called the 44-40." Samual Colt held the patent for revolvers and the name Colt 45 was his and his alone just like "windows" belongs to Microsoft.

Don't know if you have any belief in the writings of Paco but here is what he has to say.... "But the research I did back in 1984/85 for my first book on leverguns shows that the 45 Colt handgun round was a proprietary round developed and patented by Colt for the Army. And Colt never gave permission to other companies to chamber any guns for it. That included S&W, Winchester, and later Marlin....so the 44-40 became the revolver/rifle classic. Colt did sell 45 caliber handguns to the public early on when U.S. Army orders slowed...but wouldn’t let other manufacturers chamber for it." http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

The rim. The extractor could not grab the rim. Had the round been designed with the same sort of rim configuration as the .44-40, things would have been a lot different.

Reference/site? The only thing I can possible think of that would support that would be the old balloon head cartridges but even with that, that still was not the reason rifles were not produced for the Colt 45. Guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Mike Irwin]

I've never seen that information from Paco. I'd be very interested in seeing his research on it, as I've never been able to find anything remotely like that in any of the patent databases I've ever searched.

I also can't see how Colt could have gotten a patent or trademark on the cartridge. It didn't employ any substantially new technology that would have allowed a patent or trademark vector.

I'm going to post a query on the IAA forum board and see if anyone there has any information.

Back to the rifles...

Colt manufactured approximately 12,000 (maybe fewer) revolving cylinder rifles and carbines in the 1830s through the 1850s. Colt even offered, at the outset of the Civil War, to equip a regiment, under his command and at his expense, with Colt revolving rifles. The Army, for whatever reason, declined.


"The only thing I can possible think of that would support that would be the old balloon head cartridges but even with that, that still was not the reason rifles were not produced for the Colt 45."

Virtually all cartridge cases at that time were balloon head cases, and were up through the early years of the 20th century. I have several boxes of Winchester-made .44 Specials, made sometime after July 1915 (advertising insert inside the boxes is dated); the cases are balloon head.

There's also another Colt-manufactured rifle in the equasion -- the Burgess lever action. This was made around the same time as the Lightning rifles, and was made in .44-40.

It's curious, don't you think, that Colt manufactured their rifles to be compatible with Winchester's cartridge offerings, but never manufactured any of their rifles to take their own flagship cartridge?

As for the reference, the only reference I can give at this time is that it's information I found in one of the books in NRA Publication's internal technical reference library when I worked for American Rifleman back in the early 1990s. I no longer recall the book or author (or magazine), nor do I recall what I was researching when I came across it.

Anyway, I'll let you know what the people at IAA say. This has been an interesting discussion.