I was doing some research and found that the Winchester Cowboy Action .45 Colt load pushes a 255 Grain flat nosed lead bullet at 750 fps out of a 5 inch barrel. This approximates the orginal black powder load for the 45. This was the load that gave the 45 caliber handgun it's stopping power rep. If it was a good man stopper would it still be a good one to use today?
45 long colt cowboy ammo for self defense
- Thread starter 9mmhpfan
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Deaf Smith
New member
9 fan,
I don't think homo sapiens have changed all that much since the 1870s, so I think that .45 load would be fine and dandy.
I don't think homo sapiens have changed all that much since the 1870s, so I think that .45 load would be fine and dandy.
chris in va
New member
Pretty close to 45acp, don't see why not. Problem is most 45LC is out of a SA revolver, so needs a lot more practice for defensive scenerios.
Swampghost
New member
Off topic, I use .44 CA rounds for deer under 50 yds. in my 1894 Marlin. It's only the first round but that's the one that counts.
Modern "cowboy action" ammo is NOT designed to duplicate "old west" conditions.
At the height of what we think of as the "old west" period (1873-1890ish) there were NO 45LC leverguns or long guns of any type, other than maybe a one-off custom here and there. That's because the 45LC rim was too narrow for reliable extraction. 45LC leverguns do exist today, and "cowboy action" ammo is designed so as not to go past 1,000fps in a rifle barrel. Cowboy action shooting sports use metal targets at close range with lots of bystanders - it's a safety issue that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with authenticity.
That load at 950fps is a good deal more dangerous than the same at 700/750.
Next...there are some spectacularly good modern loads in 45LC. Why the hell not carry them? The best is likely the Speer 250gr "giant hollowpoint from hell" JHP. It will do about 900-950 from a typical 4" barrel, and will expand reliably from 850 on up. It's a scaled up version of the 135gr 38+P "snubby special" concept. I think it's likely this is the most deadly subsonic load in existence in anything like a standard caliber.
Winchester's 225gr Silvertip is also a good load and still stays subsonic. It's not as good as the Speer 250 but it's worlds ahead of "cowboy loads" which aren't even close to authentic to start with.
There's also various 200gr supersonic (1,100fps or more) JHPs that I don't recommend. They'll be more noise than they're worth since some great subsonics are available as stated above. That said, the 200s will do just fine on target.
All of the JHPs will be SAFER in bystander-dense situation. They're less likely to go through the target into somebody else, and yeah, that happens.
For wilderness carry in a modern SAA-strength-class gun, the 255 to 260gr SWCs going about 1,000fps make lots of sense, and would do quite well for personal defense should that come up. They'll also do tolerably well against a black bear, real well against cougar and might stop a decent-size piggie in a pinch. For urban carry they'd be insane, the odds they'll blow through a human at lethal speeds on the other side are about 100%.
Any handgun is fundamentally inadequate. OK? They're not good stoppers. They don't fling bullets fast enough to damage tissue AROUND the bullet's path - that takes something around 2,100fps or so for "hydrostatic shock". Opinions vary on that point, but the thing is, the fastest common handgun rounds you can score (357maggie doing 1,600fps) is NOT going to get into hydrostatic shock territory.
So you ought to be more picky about ammo.
That's my take anyhow.
At the height of what we think of as the "old west" period (1873-1890ish) there were NO 45LC leverguns or long guns of any type, other than maybe a one-off custom here and there. That's because the 45LC rim was too narrow for reliable extraction. 45LC leverguns do exist today, and "cowboy action" ammo is designed so as not to go past 1,000fps in a rifle barrel. Cowboy action shooting sports use metal targets at close range with lots of bystanders - it's a safety issue that has NOTHING whatsoever to do with authenticity.
That load at 950fps is a good deal more dangerous than the same at 700/750.
Next...there are some spectacularly good modern loads in 45LC. Why the hell not carry them? The best is likely the Speer 250gr "giant hollowpoint from hell" JHP. It will do about 900-950 from a typical 4" barrel, and will expand reliably from 850 on up. It's a scaled up version of the 135gr 38+P "snubby special" concept. I think it's likely this is the most deadly subsonic load in existence in anything like a standard caliber.
Winchester's 225gr Silvertip is also a good load and still stays subsonic. It's not as good as the Speer 250 but it's worlds ahead of "cowboy loads" which aren't even close to authentic to start with.
There's also various 200gr supersonic (1,100fps or more) JHPs that I don't recommend. They'll be more noise than they're worth since some great subsonics are available as stated above. That said, the 200s will do just fine on target.
All of the JHPs will be SAFER in bystander-dense situation. They're less likely to go through the target into somebody else, and yeah, that happens.
For wilderness carry in a modern SAA-strength-class gun, the 255 to 260gr SWCs going about 1,000fps make lots of sense, and would do quite well for personal defense should that come up. They'll also do tolerably well against a black bear, real well against cougar and might stop a decent-size piggie in a pinch. For urban carry they'd be insane, the odds they'll blow through a human at lethal speeds on the other side are about 100%.
Any handgun is fundamentally inadequate. OK? They're not good stoppers. They don't fling bullets fast enough to damage tissue AROUND the bullet's path - that takes something around 2,100fps or so for "hydrostatic shock". Opinions vary on that point, but the thing is, the fastest common handgun rounds you can score (357maggie doing 1,600fps) is NOT going to get into hydrostatic shock territory.
So you ought to be more picky about ammo.
That's my take anyhow.
Jim and I agree on somethings, and need to discuss others.
A soft lead, gas checked HP, that weighs 260 grains, going at least 1000 fps gives me the warm and fuzzies. Likewise a 260 grain JHC bullet at 1450 fps is supposed to be VERY effective on black bear...
One of the things that bothers me about light HP's for caliber, like 200 grain 45 HPs, is they need to be going at least 1200 fps to get adequate penetration.
The good news is you can move 185 grain .429" HPS at 1600 fps, and barely get 15" of penetration.
The S&@ X frames can move 200 grain bullets or so, at 2300 fps, and, that would be into the rifle velocity range...
By the way, there are handgun rounds that ARE adequate
stoppers, just most people don't carry them: .475 Linebaugh, up. Also, the 45 Colt loads, 260 grains @ 1450 fps certainly resemble that remark, as well...
A soft lead, gas checked HP, that weighs 260 grains, going at least 1000 fps gives me the warm and fuzzies. Likewise a 260 grain JHC bullet at 1450 fps is supposed to be VERY effective on black bear...
One of the things that bothers me about light HP's for caliber, like 200 grain 45 HPs, is they need to be going at least 1200 fps to get adequate penetration.
The good news is you can move 185 grain .429" HPS at 1600 fps, and barely get 15" of penetration.
The S&@ X frames can move 200 grain bullets or so, at 2300 fps, and, that would be into the rifle velocity range...
By the way, there are handgun rounds that ARE adequate
stoppers, just most people don't carry them: .475 Linebaugh, up. Also, the 45 Colt loads, 260 grains @ 1450 fps certainly resemble that remark, as well...
Thanks for the helpful information.. My question was guided by ammo availablity. Stores around here that carry the 45 Long Colt ammo only carry the cowboy action stuff and although I am not relying on my old model vaquero with 4 3/4 inch barrel as primary self defense weapon in a handgun platform ( Steyr M9A1 9mm fills this role) I wanted to have some ammo for it for a just in case scenrio.
Were the original loads made with bullets that were dead soft lead? Like for muzzleloaders? They did not alloy the lead to make it hard like a modern SWC for hunting, did they? Because those old soft lead bullets acted like a soft point jacketed bullet, only more so. They really tended to flatten or spread out a bit when poking a soft target, didn't they? Round balls did. Never saw a picture of a round ball recovered from a hunt or a victim that was round anymore. So 900 fps and a dead soft heavy lead .45 bullet ought to live up to it's reputation, even if it is not up to what modern ammo does. Then again the British large bore revolver loads were not as hot as the .45 Colt. For the Webleys etc. they had something in the 700 or so speed and they thought it effective.
The load you referenced will most assuredly kill and it will incapacitate, assuming you hit the centerline straight-on. What it won't do is knock a big hole through elastic tissue and vessels.
Seeing as how contested events of this nature are hardly ever choreographed in favor of the protagonist, it don't hurt to have a little better bullet at a tad more velocity. Going to a heavy SWC and bumping the throttle up 100 fps or so will make a notable difference; or you could follow Mr. March's lead and simply select one of several excellent factory defense loads in this caliber.
I happen to like the Federal's 225 lead hollowpoint at 900 fps. It should do about as well as the better .45 ACP loads using a 230 grain bullet.
Seeing as how contested events of this nature are hardly ever choreographed in favor of the protagonist, it don't hurt to have a little better bullet at a tad more velocity. Going to a heavy SWC and bumping the throttle up 100 fps or so will make a notable difference; or you could follow Mr. March's lead and simply select one of several excellent factory defense loads in this caliber.
I happen to like the Federal's 225 lead hollowpoint at 900 fps. It should do about as well as the better .45 ACP loads using a 230 grain bullet.
Jim Watson
New member
The "cowboy" load of a 255 at 750 is very close to the .45 S&W-Schofield-Government which was considered a good manstopper in the day, even though not quite up to the full power 1873 Colt round. But since you can do better, why not DO better?
Blazer makes a very nice 200 grain HP 45 Colt load that is well suited for self defense. It's held to standard 45 colt pressure (non "Ruger-Only") so you can use it in any 45 Colt gun. It's a good trade off between power and controlability. Energy wise, it's just behind the .357 mag at the muzzle.
Blazer ammo.
Blazer ammo.
Old model Vaquero's are strong guns. I'd look at this load for your purpose:
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#45colt
Item 3C: 260 gr. J.H.P. (1450 fps / M.E. 1214 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 350 lbs.)
That was my favorite commercial 45 Colt load. Supposed to work well on black bears, and hogs.
Item 3E:
255gr. Gas checked soft cast bullet
(1000 fps M.E.566 ft. lbs.)
Per Box of 20
$33.95
Item 3F:
200gr. JHC (Speer low velocity Gold Dot)
(1100 fps M.E. 537 ft. lbs)
Per Box of 20
$33.95
The 255 grain above is what a modern equal to the old cowboy loads, but, gas checked, for no leading.
Double Tap has a SWC load as well.
With a strong gun, I see NO reason to limit yourself to the anemic 45 Colt loads offered by most factory ammunition.
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#45colt
Item 3C: 260 gr. J.H.P. (1450 fps / M.E. 1214 ft. lbs.)
(Big game up to 350 lbs.)
That was my favorite commercial 45 Colt load. Supposed to work well on black bears, and hogs.
Item 3E:
255gr. Gas checked soft cast bullet
(1000 fps M.E.566 ft. lbs.)
Per Box of 20
$33.95
Item 3F:
200gr. JHC (Speer low velocity Gold Dot)
(1100 fps M.E. 537 ft. lbs)
Per Box of 20
$33.95
The 255 grain above is what a modern equal to the old cowboy loads, but, gas checked, for no leading.
Double Tap has a SWC load as well.
With a strong gun, I see NO reason to limit yourself to the anemic 45 Colt loads offered by most factory ammunition.
Rampant_Colt
New member
Federal 225gr lead hollowpoint
Winchester 225gr Silvertip
Speer 200gr JHP Blazer
Speer 250gr Gold Dot
Corbon 200gr JHP
Remington 255gr SWC
all of the above loads are suitable for self-defense use
Winchester 225gr Silvertip
Speer 200gr JHP Blazer
Speer 250gr Gold Dot
Corbon 200gr JHP
Remington 255gr SWC
all of the above loads are suitable for self-defense use
orionengnr
New member
CorBon DPX 225 gr (massive hollowpoint) @1100 fps 
I cast my own .452 bullets and have several molds [230 to 255 grains]. I may have to try casting some SWC's or flat-nosed bullets using dead soft lead and see how they do. I usually use a mixture of wheel weights and scrounged lead from the pistol range.
I generally load .45's to about 1000 or 1100 fps; no gas checks because I'm too cheap (even when I load them to 1300+ fps, the leading is not bad.)
I generally load .45's to about 1000 or 1100 fps; no gas checks because I'm too cheap (even when I load them to 1300+ fps, the leading is not bad.)
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