.45 can defeat body armor? (Phoenix Arizona shooting)

If the .45 could be effective with body armor the army would not be using the 9mm now. The .45 will not punch decent armor with a tungsten insert even while a 9mm will. Am wondering what load Gunslinger used in the .41, was that the hot federal 1500fps stuff? Nasty killer load from what I have seen. :) :)
 
Level IIA is probably enough in most places in the USA, here in Finland the choice is mostly level II, because 9mm is a common caliber and FMJ mostly used. IIA is rated for 124 gr 9mm FMJ only in subsonic velocities, and that means all common supersonic 9mm FMJ rounds (all loads above IPSC minor floor or IDPA floor) might penetrate it.

Contrary to what DerGlockenpooper says AP rounds are made in common calibers, like in 9mm, and can be shot from normal guns. However, AP ammo sales are limited to military only in many countries, and besides the USA they are restricted at least in all European Union countries.

The best penetrating common pistol caliber is probably 7.62 Tokarev, that can penetrate even level IIIA, and with steel core ammo IIIA also with extra trauma plates. European vest makers list it a serious threat for Russia, other ex-East Block countries and China, because all those countries produced Tokarevs (and Czechoslovakia the even mome penetrating CZ-52) in quantity.

BTW, in 1986 the Swedish prime minister Olof Palme was assassinated using S&W .357 Magnum revolver with US made armor piercing ammo (don't know the brand). Probably the shooter wanted to make sure he succeeded even if Palme had a vest, which he did not have. The murderer(s) is/are still at large.

Ossi
 
The article says the officer was hit in the gap between the panels in his vest. Some days just aren't your day.

Second Chance rates their level II vests as being effective against the 7.62x25 85 grain FMJ round at 1250 fps from a 24 inch barrel. I find that interesting because I don't know of anything chambered in 7.62 Tok w/a 24" barrel. I've heard of Tok ammo considerably hotter than that. Apparently Carlos the Jackel carried a CZ-52 b/c he believed it would penetrate soft body armor.

Are there any LE agencies still using Level I vests? I've never seen one and was under the impression none of the big manufacturers made them anymore.

regards,
David
 
One of the misconceptions about vests is that they are "bullet proof." They are, in fact, bullet resistant. They increase the odds for survival but do not guarentee it. It is sort of like wearing a safety belt. You increase your chances for survival in a wreck, but that is all.
 
Hey Ossi, do you have info on the Finnish Police "light vest"? The company I work for issues these, but I have been unable to find exact info on exactly what do these things stop...

My e-mail address should be visible, if you wish to discuss this privately...

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Tony S.
 
I will tell something else that will penetrate "bullet proof vest". A knife will. A salesman in Oklahoma City was demostating a vest and how it would stop even a knife and stabbed himself in the heart through the vest and died from the wound on the spot. I think he was from out of town, I don't know an Okie dumb enough to do such a thing.
 
Tony.s, as I said the Finnish Police vest is level II. That means it stops all common calibers/loads up to 9mm and .357 Mag fired from pistol length barrels.

Tables showing different threat levels can be found in various sites in the Internet, here is one http://21stcenturyhardarmor.com/nij.htm#II

NIJ threat level classification is not the only one in use. At least Germans, Russians, and Swedish have their own, and many European manufacturers make vests according to the standards the purchaser desires.

Loudernhel, interesting to hear that Second Chance tells even their IIA vest can defeat downloaded 7.62x25 Tokarev. But if all (or most) factory loads are hotter 1250 fps even from a pistol barrel, I wonder what's the point of telling that?

Ossi
 
You mentioned that the vests were designed to stop a round from a pistol length barrel. I had a chat with a deputy and he told me that a 9mm round from an MP5 would go through three vests (type II, I think they wear around here). Greater velocity due to the barrel length, of course. Has anyone done/published a study of barrel length and penetration of vests?
If you fired a .45 from something like a Thompson I bet it would defeat kevlar.

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Those who use arms well cultivate the Way and keep the rules.Thus they can govern in such a way as to prevail over the corrupt- Sun Tzu, The Art of War
 
As a former LEO, this sort of banter just makes me feel a bit uncomfortable. I do NOT begrudge anyone's right to be informed, but I do worry about the unknown element of lurkers which may tune in here. I would definitely LOVE to see the press stop mentioning body-armor when discussing LEO shootings. It would be sufficient to say that an officer survived his/her shooting and is in ____ condition at an area hospital.
This is just like reporting on the type of gun used in a crime. An area teen recently took an SKS, concealed in a bat bag, to a Little League game. He told aquaintances that he intended to use it against the winners if "his" team lost. Well, the TV played up the "assault weapon" aspect LARGE. They even showed the dreaded fixed banana "clip" and "armor-piercing" ammo that it was loaded with. It was a non-detachable POS mag and plain ComBloc ball ammo. Simply describing it as a 'rifle', or 'Chinese surplus military rifle' should suffice. But, that doesn't promote their true agenda.

[This message has been edited by VictorLouis (edited July 24, 2000).]
 
I am not exactly sure - but I doubt a 9mm fired from an MP5 would defeat 3 vests... I have doubts about it defeating 1 vest... Especialy with these newer vest made of the very good Spectra fibers and such... but I have been out of this loop for some time now.

As for a Thompson... No. It still will not defeat a vest.

These remain PISTOL CALIBERS and the velocity gain is not that great... Oh by the way - most users of MP5s use either suped up SMG ammo (NOT the stuff you'ld fire from a pistol!) or Subsonics... MADE to be slower than the speed of sound with a powder charge ment to have less of a flash - meaning less EXTRA pressure that a long barrel would make use of... Of course there will still be a gain in energy from the longer tube - but not enough to make that kinda difference.

Your still talking blunt force trauma. As a survivor of this type of force (A .45 to the chest) I know exactly what this feels like... and I also know that it DID NOT defeat even on one the kevlar layers of my vest! It did however turn my trauma plate into a jello mold.
 
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