.45 ACP v. 45 LC (DO NOT START A FIGHT)

C

CommissarHark

Inactive
I'm not here to spark a debate, I do not one a war in my thread. I cannot stress that point anymore. DO. NOT. START. A. FIGHT.

Moving on to my actual question. I own a Pietta reproduction 1858 Remington, a pair of them actually, one is pure blued steel the other has a lovely case hardened frame. I have converted the case hardened one with a .45 LC cylinder, and a loading channel. I want to convert the blued one as well. I purchased for it though, the .45 ACP cylinder, listening to everyone everywhere wax poetically about how it is the best handgun cartridge ever. However I was looking at my "Bible" (Lee Loaders Hand Book) and I realized that I am getting a lot less performance out of the .45 ACP, compared to my .45 LC loads, for almost 6000 psi more in pressure. Now 18000psi cannot be good for my gun, so I wonder what the point is in me having .45 ACP. I'd like real experiences with either, or both cartirdges, and any advice. I plan, currently, on returning the .45 ACP cylinder, counting the restocking fee, and purchased rounds as a loss, and purchasing a proper .45 LC cylinder to pair the guns. Any advice, or knowledge on the subject would be greatly appreciated, I only have until next Monday, 9/16/13 to make my decision before I'm over the limit for the return policy.
 
The utility of the 45 Auto cylinder is that you can shoot less expensive 45 Auto through it. Whether one is better than the other is a moot point. At SAAMI specs with factory loads it's a pair of sixes. Where the 45 Colt starts to seriously outclass the 45 Auto is in the Ruger Blackhawk with handloads. I have a Blackhawk convertible and used the 45 Auto cylinder extensively, until I bought an auto pistol so chambered. Now it sees 45 Colt almost exclusively, I save my 45 Auto loads for my pistols. 45 Auto out of a revolver is a cool concept but it won't beat 45 Colt. I now prefer revolver cartridges for revolvers and auto pistol cartridges for auto pistols.
 
I also find myself shooting mostly .45 Colt in my convertibles. I reload. I can load a bit heavier bullets as needed/necessary where you can't with .45 ACP due to limited case volume. That said I do load 250g RNFP in my .45 ACP cases to shoot in my convertibles. If shooting in a revolver, you can use Auto Rim data for your .45 ACP cases. Gives you a bit more flexiblity in your loads.

All, said and done, I can think of only one good reason to use .45 ACP in a revolver and that is, you can shoot 'off the shelf' factory .45 ACP which is readily available. Otherwise .45 Colt is the way to go IMHO.
 
If you reload ....it just depends on what you want to do / but I'd probably say go to the .45 Colt...../ and if you reload, its only marginally more expensive to reload.
 
I sent my 2nd Generation Colt SAA .45LC back to the Colt Custom Shop some years back and had it fitted with a .45 ACP cylinder. Best money I ever spent, it has more than paid for itself in ammo savings. I even think the accuracy may even be a little better with the .45 ACP. Although, that is hard to say as the gun is far more accurate than I am capable of shooting - LOL.
 
A friend has a Ruger .45 convertible, and had the .45 ACP cylinder it in when we were out shooting. I tried it, and .45 ACP out of a revolver is a sweet-shooting cartridge. If you handload, you can use heavy SWC bullets that wouldn't feed in a semiauto (look up .45 Autorim loads) And if you don't handload, you need the ACP cylinder because you can't always find .45 Colt ammo, and when you do it's really expensive.

I like my .45 Colt, but if all I had was .45 ACP I would be happy with that too. Don't worry about the higher pressure, with the smaller cartridge your gun doesn't care.
 
I would believe that any blackpowder pistol is made from materials that are sufficient for blackpowder pressures. I really doubt the frame is alloy steel, or out of a quality alloy such as 4140. Those are just not needed for black powder, and even if they were used, you would have to show that the metal parts were heat treated as normalized 4140 is more than strong enough for blackpowder.

Yes, you have replaced the cylinder but the stresses in the frame are still carried by what should be fairly soft material.

If I wanted X velocity I would choose the cartridge that gave X velocity with the lowest pressures.

This is not a contest about which cartridge is better or more accurate, to me, it is an issue of reducing pressures.
 
I've owned both a Ruger Blackhawk .45colt and a 1911a1 .45acp. I've reloaded for both cartridges. I still have the Blackhawk. IMHO there is nothing wrong with the .45acp, I just found the .45colt more versatile. Keep in mind, this is just my opinion and your goals may be considerably different from mine.
 
The .45 ACP (Automatic Colt Pistol) cartridge was designed and intended to replicate the ballistic performance of a .45 Colt revolver in a smaller cartridge suitable for use in a semi-automatic pistol. Since the .45 Colt was originally a black powder cartridge, this was easy because smokeless powder is more efficient in terms of energy-to-volume.

You can easily load (or buy, although buying any ammo today is problematic) .45 ACP that's not loaded to the maximum, but even the maximum isn't going to hurt your pistol. According to SAAMI data straight from their web site, the average pressure for .45 Colt is 14,000 psi. The average for .45 ACP is 21,000 psi. Yes, that's a 50 percent increase, but it's also still a comparatively low pressure. For comparison, 9mm Parabellum runs in the range of 35,000 psi.

I have a .45 ACP conversion cylinder for an Italian SAA clone, and I have no worries about using it. Keep in mind that when the .45 Colt cartridge was developed (as a blackpowder cartridge, don't forget), the frames of the Colt 1873s were iron or mild steel, they weren't fully hardened the way even the Italian reproduction guns are today. You won't hurt your 1858 shooting .45 ACP through it.

For other points of comparison, .38 Special is (according to SAAMI) 17,000 psi, and .40 S&W is 35,000.
 
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If one does not reload, and wants to do a lot of shooting. .45 ACP is going to cost way less than .45 Colt. When there is not a shortage going on then .45 Auto will be much easier to find, and is ususaly half the cost of .45 Colt off the shelf.

If one reloads then the .45 Colt can be loaded with heavier bullets, and has the case capacity for slower powders, giving more velocity. .45 ACP is cheaper, and easier to find. Many places finding .45 Colt brass is like getting a $50 scratch ticket winner.

Both ha ve thier pros, both have their cons. It comes down to one's personal preference.
 
I went to the local Mills Farm and Fleet earlier today and found multiple boxes of 45 ACP on the shelves. However, I was astonished to find probably 20 or so boxes of 45 long Colt also there. It has been a long time since I've seen that.

Alas, there was zero 9mm and 22lr in evidence.

Joe
 
I do reload

I actually do reloads which makes the .45 LC, from what I'm seeing here, make more sense. Now they say never use jacketed, and that seems to be all I can find in .45 ACP, any thoughts on that?

Also @SlamFire: The cylinder usually takes the brunt of the damage and it is made of 4140. The frame I do not know.
 
I have a Ruger BH 45 convertible, love the gun and it's versitility. I have actually been shooting the 45ACP more in than the 45LC lately. One reason is I recently bought a High Point Carbine in 45 ACP (it may be a High Point but it is a fun gun). Hunting javelinas, jack rabbits and beer cans with both a few months ago was a blast.

I also reload. Neither has seen a factory cartridge since they were tested at the factory. I use Berry's 230 grain plated for practice and plinking and 230 grain Hornaday or Sierra hollow point for hunting. Current power charge is 8.3 grains 800X. This is actually pretty pleasant to shoot in the revolver. I have also shot 230 grain lead RN from a local supplier and they shot great in the revolver.

It is your choice if you return the cylinder or not but I am thinking it is some pretty good bang for your buck if you just bought the 45LC cylinder and kept the 45ACP cylinder.

Hope this helps.
James
 
I love the ACP in a single action but have reservations about using it in a converted percussion gun. These guns are not made of the same steels as their cartridge counterparts and I would be concerned about premature wear. Luckily, they are often found on sale at Cabela's for not much more than $200.
 
I use both and like both. They serve different purposes. I use 45 Colt for Cowboy Action Shooting through single actions. I use 45 ACP for defense and general use. It works. I'd love to get a Ruger Blackhawk with 45 ACP cylinder.
 
.45 ACP v. 45 LC (DO NOT START A FIGHT)
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No fight needed.

The LC round is great by itself and needs no defenders.

The .45 ACP, in revolvers is ok, but unless it is a strong one you cannot load it to the potential of a .45 LC.

Now if it IS stronger, say a 625-1 S&W, you can use .45 Supers, and with a slight rebore you can use .45 Roland or .451 Detonics (Jimmy Clark of Clark's custom guns does such work on a good 625.)

Now once you use a revolver like a 625 then you an use .45 Autorim brass and load some ammo that easily equals .45 LC and LC +p. (Or just use .45 Supers!)

So, while I'd love a good DA S&W .45 LC, the .45 ACP version of the gun works good enough.

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My 625-1 3 inch is at the top. With .45 Super 230 gr JHPs it chrono's out at 1000 fps from that 3 inch. I am sure I could get .45 Autorim brass to take a 250 SWC and hit the same 1000 fps.

Deaf
 

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I actually do reloads which makes the .45 LC, from what I'm seeing here, make more sense. Now they say never use jacketed,...
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WHO says never use jacketed?

Seriously, who is saying that? And about what?

The only time I ever heard any one say jacketed bullets shouldn't be used was in reference to muzzle loaders, for obvious reasons, or to those arms who's major components are made of iron or brass, and not steel.

Is it just some "expert" saying never use jacketed... or is it the maker of your gun? or the conversion unit? If it is a manufacturer, speaking about what they made, THEN pay attention. If its some web troll, just parroting something they heard once, that's a different matter.

you can use jacketed bullets in the .45 Colt. You can use jacketed bullets in guns designed (and stressed) for blackpowder loads. You just have to keep the pressures within the designed limits.

Now, if the maker of the gun says don't use jacketed bullets, then don't use jacketed bullets. They might say something like that, because with a reproduction black powder gun, the barrel steel might be "soft" compared to modern arms, and accelerated wear from jacketed bullets might result. I can see the sense in that, IF that is actually the case.

BUT, if not the case, there is no physical reason you cannot use jacketed bullets, providing the loads don't create higher pressures than lead bullet loads.

HOWEVER, when you are shooting at blackpowder pressure levels and velocities, there is no advantage to using jacketed bullets. They cost significantly more than lead bullets, and they do not work any better, until you get beyond the performance range black powder can give you.

And if you are going to be operating at velocities and pressures above blackpowder levels, hard cast lead bullets still provide excellent performance, particularly penetration. What they don't do is expand, and in .45 caliber expansion is a nice extra, not a required minimum for good performance.

Original performance figures for the .45 Colt were a 250gr bullet at 900-950fps. The .45 ACP is a 230gr bullet at 850fps+/-. (depending on barrel length and individual gun tolerances). This .45ACP performance was chosen to replicate the performance of the .45 Schoefield (aka .45 Govt, back in the day), which the Army considered the minimum necessary to reliably put down a horse (or a man). .45 Govt was the commonly issued ammo for Army revolvers, because it worked in both the S&Ws and the Colt SAA in Army use at the time.

Can't say I'm a big fan of converting black powder guns (replicas) into modern cartridge arms, but if that's your thing, enjoy. Just stay within the safe limits of the gun design AND the materials its made of.

Several have mentioned the joy they found, and the benefits of getting another cylinder and shooting .45 acp from their .45 colts. I went the other way. I had a .45 auto, and 30 years ago, got a .45 Colt convertible (ruger Blackhawk), with the intention of shooting my ACP ammo, and not having to hunt for the empties to reload. However, I made the "mistake" of shooting the gun with .45 Colt ammo first. I got hooked on the .45 Colt (and that Ruger!) In 30 years, I think I have put maybe 300 rnds of .45acp through that gun, but several thousand rounds of .45 Colt.

Here's something else to look at, what is the actual bore size of the gun(s) you are converting? Pre WWII, .45 Colt caliber guns generally had a .454" diameter bore. Post WWII guns in .45 Colt have generally adopted the .451/.452" inch diameter bore size of the .45acp.

Shooting lead bullets from either round generally handles variations in bore size acceptably well (for accuracy), as the relatively soft alloy upsets enough, or squeezes down enough for decent performance. Jacketed bullets, on the other hand, don't adapt so well, and could give poor accuracy in a slightly oversize (for the bullet used) barrel.

Original cap & ball guns, converted to firing cartridges generally kept their original bore sizes. This was not an issue back in those days, because the lead bullets used in the "new" cartridges would upset and fill the bore properly, anyway. Also the early cartridges all used the heel type bullets, with their full caliber size bearing surfaces.

This might be a reason for the maker to say not to use jacketed bullets, also. If the bore size is too large for standard jacketed bullet diameters, but lead will upset and fill the bore, that would be a good reason to only use lead bullets.
 
Percussion guns are not made with the same steels and heat treatments as their factory cartridge counterpart. I wouldn't use jacketed bullets in any converted percussion gun.
 
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