Is the .45 ACP cartridge still a viable round for military or police use? The 9mm has pretty usurped the day for these two uses. Is the .45 ACP a dead end for the military or police? Think about what happened to the Marine Corps' latest 1911. Sent to the boneyard after only a handful of years.
.45 ACP, still viable for military or police?
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sigarms228
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Sure it's viable and especially so if FMJ must be used or is all that is available.
If I lived in a place where I could CCW only 10 rounds, as more and more states are getting too, it would most certainly be .45.
If I lived in a place where I could CCW only 10 rounds, as more and more states are getting too, it would most certainly be .45.
Military and police use a handgun for differently. Military, using ball ammo [except for some special ops] yields little benefit over the 9mm. Take into account the fact that a wounded person takes more people out of the battle than killing a person and that the pistol is not the primary weapon...no need for the extra weight.
Police, in many instances, the pistol is the primary weapon. With more and more women on the job and that size/weight requirements are out the window, not enough officers can handle the size of the pistol required to chamber the 45. Add to that the number of lawsuits filed for wrongful death...the smaller the bullet the better.
Police, in many instances, the pistol is the primary weapon. With more and more women on the job and that size/weight requirements are out the window, not enough officers can handle the size of the pistol required to chamber the 45. Add to that the number of lawsuits filed for wrongful death...the smaller the bullet the better.
Not counting changes in other ammunition what could have changed in the .45 to make it suddenly not viable? The only reason other ammunition has become viable is because of positive changes. Its not like the .45 has suddenly become not viable. It just may no longer be the best choice for a myriad of reasons.
The 9mm is popular now because of price and low recoil. More and more police and military are allowing women and people with small hands or are recoil shy to join.
I will stick with .45 as it has greater momentum and the same improvements made with 9mm hollow points have also been made to .45.
I will stick with .45 as it has greater momentum and the same improvements made with 9mm hollow points have also been made to .45.
carguychris
New member
For military use, .45 is significantly worse than 9mm for several major reasons.Northof50 said:
- More expensive per round.
- Larger and heavier per round, so a soldier can't hump as much of it, and it occupies more load-carrying capacity in the truck or transport aircraft.
- Doesn't penetrate as well. Military firefights are much more likely than police shootouts to involve targets hidden behind cover, and collateral damage is generally less of a concern, so penetration is more beneficial.
As I mentioned at the top, the last and best opportunity for the 1911 in the military was the Marine's MARSOC adoption of Colt's M45 MEUSOC 1911. Then within just a few years it was dropped. They're going with the Glock 9mm, like all the other spec operators.
As for the cops, there may be a few pockets of hold outs but the drift is obvious, drop the .45 ACP or .40 S&W ... go to the 9mm.
The claim from the cops and military is the same: it's just as effective (because of new bullets) and it has far less recoil.
As for the cops, there may be a few pockets of hold outs but the drift is obvious, drop the .45 ACP or .40 S&W ... go to the 9mm.
The claim from the cops and military is the same: it's just as effective (because of new bullets) and it has far less recoil.
Well, the 40 was an answer to the question. Unfortunately, that question wasn't, "which is better the 9 or 45?" It was, "can we make a smaller cartridge for the 10mm light, that would could have a smaller grip and easier to shoot?" The 10mm was the answer to the original question. It's no wonder the 40 is losing ground fast.
Kind of. The 10MM, as originally conceived by Jeff Cooper in theory, was very close to what the .40 was in the end. The 10MM as it came out with full power loads, which I love BTW, was the boys in the Bren Ten project and Norma pushing for more and more.
To me the 9MM is the default service cartridge. Rural areas may find the 10MM (where dangerous animals are more likely to be encountered) or .357 SIG (for extended range) more suitable for certain applications but for most service pistols 9MM is going to work out as well as anything.
I'll give the non-PC answer.
Dept's are leaving .40 & .45 for 9mm because they're less deadly when used by
the average officer...meaning less "Demostrations" for dead hoodlums in a given year.
Frankly, brass don't want the heat, they can't stand the heat...even though the
entire BLM movement is based on a lie. Roughly twice as many whites are killed
by cops than other races. Period. In 2015 it was 508 Whites killed by cops to 261 Black.
Average numbers ratios haven't changed much in the last 30 years.
There's plenty scumbags in every race to keep cops busy.
What has changed is social media. And that liberal groups will happily spend
tons of money to bus in protestors anywhere in the USA. They're using the
"Squeaky Wheel gets the Grease" method. And its working.
Downside is it's likely to cause a lot of unintended consequences...like more
scumbags running the streets that oughta be toes up. On the upside, more
Citizens than ever are arming up, more women are carrying guns and getting
proper training on how to shoot, and that will have an effect on bad guys, at
least in states that allow self-defense...
Dept's are leaving .40 & .45 for 9mm because they're less deadly when used by
the average officer...meaning less "Demostrations" for dead hoodlums in a given year.
Frankly, brass don't want the heat, they can't stand the heat...even though the
entire BLM movement is based on a lie. Roughly twice as many whites are killed
by cops than other races. Period. In 2015 it was 508 Whites killed by cops to 261 Black.
Average numbers ratios haven't changed much in the last 30 years.
There's plenty scumbags in every race to keep cops busy.
What has changed is social media. And that liberal groups will happily spend
tons of money to bus in protestors anywhere in the USA. They're using the
"Squeaky Wheel gets the Grease" method. And its working.
Downside is it's likely to cause a lot of unintended consequences...like more
scumbags running the streets that oughta be toes up. On the upside, more
Citizens than ever are arming up, more women are carrying guns and getting
proper training on how to shoot, and that will have an effect on bad guys, at
least in states that allow self-defense...
The reality is that a pistol was never a real stopper regardless of era. As I recall one lawman got shot 18 times and never killed.
No, the 45 has no significant upside over 9mm these days for Police. Military is an odd area I am not going to try to go into other that a JRN of 45 cal is no more effective than the same in 9mm as they both just poke holes.
The change is the vast improvement in SD ammo. Lead slugs at one time would have incurred a better odd as they (if done right) would expand. As thee 45 ACP cold not be made in lead (granted truncated cone type and good feed ramps change that)
Upshot is that SD JHP works better, 45 improve some, but 9mm benefits even more. All the data says they are so clse to equal as to make no difference, its all statistics. One day a 9mm was very effective, the next its 40, following day 45 and some days none of them do what you need.
.
I have heard that repeated endless.
In this case for a pistol fight in the military its not remotely applicable. If it gets that close the last thing you want is to wound someone who can still kill you. There is a high chance it will happen with pistols, but that is a by product not an intent.
For a main battle, you want to kill people. Wounding them unless severely means you still have a soldier (or whatever) that can still shoot and kill you.
Its a phase that has slipped into the lexicon that has no merit. Longer term is equal to both side sans a ISIS type.
ISIS or Taliban?: They die or they go home and get patched up. Taliban particularity ally tend to be seriously toughly raised people, they don't die easily and the 5.56 just pokes holes in tgheir skinny bodies.
Reality is that it takes a very Targeted round be it rifle or pistol to outright kill someone.
Some do it in a little longer, some longer yet and some not at all.
9mm has a benefit of more rounds and easier to control and so close to equally effective that its simply the person who is accurate enough to make a hit that wins.
No, the 45 has no significant upside over 9mm these days for Police. Military is an odd area I am not going to try to go into other that a JRN of 45 cal is no more effective than the same in 9mm as they both just poke holes.
The change is the vast improvement in SD ammo. Lead slugs at one time would have incurred a better odd as they (if done right) would expand. As thee 45 ACP cold not be made in lead (granted truncated cone type and good feed ramps change that)
Upshot is that SD JHP works better, 45 improve some, but 9mm benefits even more. All the data says they are so clse to equal as to make no difference, its all statistics. One day a 9mm was very effective, the next its 40, following day 45 and some days none of them do what you need.
.
I have heard that repeated endless.
In this case for a pistol fight in the military its not remotely applicable. If it gets that close the last thing you want is to wound someone who can still kill you. There is a high chance it will happen with pistols, but that is a by product not an intent.
For a main battle, you want to kill people. Wounding them unless severely means you still have a soldier (or whatever) that can still shoot and kill you.
Its a phase that has slipped into the lexicon that has no merit. Longer term is equal to both side sans a ISIS type.
ISIS or Taliban?: They die or they go home and get patched up. Taliban particularity ally tend to be seriously toughly raised people, they don't die easily and the 5.56 just pokes holes in tgheir skinny bodies.
Reality is that it takes a very Targeted round be it rifle or pistol to outright kill someone.
Some do it in a little longer, some longer yet and some not at all.
9mm has a benefit of more rounds and easier to control and so close to equally effective that its simply the person who is accurate enough to make a hit that wins.
RC20 - with respect, if killing was the primary intent, BALL ammo wouldn't be found in a single pistol and rifles would have soft-points [other than amour piercing].
Lohman446 - considering [at the time] you could easily get a .45 / 185/ 1000fps. The current 40 is that. What would have been the point? I've followed the 10 from it's inception. I'd say the "more" chant was a widely held belief by all involved. They didn't want just another round. They wanted to put the argument to rest for good.
But, like the old saying, "careful what you wish for..."
Lohman446 - considering [at the time] you could easily get a .45 / 185/ 1000fps. The current 40 is that. What would have been the point? I've followed the 10 from it's inception. I'd say the "more" chant was a widely held belief by all involved. They didn't want just another round. They wanted to put the argument to rest for good.
But, like the old saying, "careful what you wish for..."
Rangerrich99
New member
Thanks for the post. This and other stories like it are part of the reason why I have always and still feel confident in my choice of carrying a 1911 chambered in .45 ACP.
This is some of the most blatant BS I’ve ever read on this forum, and that’s saying something.
This topic comes up every few months, and we go through the same dance every time. It changes no one’s opinion and devolves into people spouting off whatever they believe personally with little evidence to back it up or really even the most basic logic applied.
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Model12Win
Moderator
Is the OP for real???
The M1911A1 is and forever will be the greatest warsman's pistol in human history. Handgun technology stopped that fateful day in 1911 when the 1911 was adopted for U.S. military use. The .45 ACP is the most devastating manstopper in human history as well, able to pick a man up off his feet and knock him down with great stopping power and hydrostatic force shock energy dump transfer:
Keep in mind the M1911A1 was the pistol that won WW1 AND WW2, the 9mm wimpy Europellet trash round LOST handily I might add, having absolutely 0 stopping power and taking sometimes dozens or even hundreds of hits to incapacitate an aggressor, while the M1911A1 had a roughly 99.99% chance of instantly killing anyone hit with it within 500 meters anywhere to the body.
Never had a more effective combat cartridge been developed, or a better combat handgun in the M1911A1. Jeff Cooper and many others agree, "taint' no finer, boys"
Seriously, it still has its place. Guns like the HK45 Tactical, FNX-45, and Glock 21 prove the .45 has a lot of life still left.
The M1911A1 is and forever will be the greatest warsman's pistol in human history. Handgun technology stopped that fateful day in 1911 when the 1911 was adopted for U.S. military use. The .45 ACP is the most devastating manstopper in human history as well, able to pick a man up off his feet and knock him down with great stopping power and hydrostatic force shock energy dump transfer:
Keep in mind the M1911A1 was the pistol that won WW1 AND WW2, the 9mm wimpy Europellet trash round LOST handily I might add, having absolutely 0 stopping power and taking sometimes dozens or even hundreds of hits to incapacitate an aggressor, while the M1911A1 had a roughly 99.99% chance of instantly killing anyone hit with it within 500 meters anywhere to the body.
Never had a more effective combat cartridge been developed, or a better combat handgun in the M1911A1. Jeff Cooper and many others agree, "taint' no finer, boys"
Seriously, it still has its place. Guns like the HK45 Tactical, FNX-45, and Glock 21 prove the .45 has a lot of life still left.
Model12Win, I'm more than sympathetic to your cause. The 1911 is a work of art.
BUT ...
Marine Corps Times - Marines opt for the 9 mil over 45s for special operators
BUT ...
Marine Corps Times - Marines opt for the 9 mil over 45s for special operators
MandolinMan
New member
If there's any data that supports this I would certainly like to see it.
Yep and yes we do argue this out every few months, with no changes in anybody's opinions so here's mine for the upteenth time: All things being equal, and usually they aren't, bigger is better, and the old .45 has a sterling record that spans 100 yrs of doing the job without boutique bullets. Rod
I'd argue no handgun has a "sterling" record.
https://www.policeone.com/police-heroes/articles/6199620-Why-one-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/
https://www.news4jax.com/news/officer-shot-6-times-shoots-kills-teenage-gunman
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