45 acp relevance idea
- Thread starter CAPMJUSTICE
- Start date
One of the first advice I give when someone asks me about a particular handgun is to see how well it fits in your hand. Guns are like shoes to me. Everyone's hands are different. I shake my head when the Glock Lovers jump up and say Glock is "thee" handgun. It's the same in reloading when W231/HP38 comes up.
Actually, I've found that it's not as impressive as I'd hoped. In fact, the 45 Super was a disappointment without adding a fair sized muzzle brake to my pistol.
You see, I've shot 45 Super out of my G21L as well but with disappointing results for me. The problem is that without a muzzle brake, a 200grn Speer Gold Dot bullet at 1,307fps is about as far as I can push the 45 Super in my pistol because the recoil is significantly higher than the 10mm's. I've also tried 230grn bullets but the recoil is even more severe. So heavy that I'm concerned about battering the frame and slide and destroying my pistol. In fact, I was so concerned that, while I loaded up 100rds of 45 Super, I've only ever shot 15 of them.
I was very surprised at that situation because shooting either a 165 or 180grn 'nuclear' level load 10mm load out of my G20L (which if you remember, is the same gun with just a different barrel and mags) produces a surprisingly soft recoil even with my hottest 10mm loads. So soft that a few who've I let shoot it with my 'nuclear' loads are almost disappointed because they expected a 'fire breathing monster' type recoil when they see the chrono results before they shoot it.
A neighbor I shoot with who owns both a G20 and G29 has also shot my 'nuclear' 165grn loads in his pistols and agrees they are a handful in either his G20 or 29 but when he shoots them in my G20L with it's 4.75oz heavier slide and barrel, he can't believe how soft the recoil is and how comfortable they are to shoot. He also agrees the balance of the pistol is better as well.
However, when I let him shoot a few .45 Super loads in my G21L, he agreed that the recoil is significantly higher than the 165grn 10mm (the higher of the 165 and 180). In fact, he was quite surprised as the 45 Super loads aren't anywhere near 'nuclear' level as my 10mm loads are. We both agree that the 10mm loads are both a strong push while the 45 Super load is more of a strong jolt.
Yes, a muzzle brake with the 45 Super loads would allow for a hotter load and the use of heavier bullets, but I don't see the practicality of a muzzle brake on a pistol just to shoot 45 Super as it isn't necessary with my 10mm. Besides, to produce more muzzle energy than my 165grn 10mm loads we'd be talking a 230grn 45 Super at 1,375fps and that would produce a significant increase in recoil over the 200grn loads with even more battering potential.
And the worst part of the difference isn't the recoil. It's that the .45 Super loads produce less muzzle energy. I'm using the same platform and the same powder, Power Pistol, and nearly the same bullet weights but the muzzle energy the 45 Super produced was a disappointment to me.
The chrono data I generated at my range which is located at 6,100ft above sea level on an 84°, sunny day shows that the 10mm produces significantly higher muzzle energy (ME) than the 45 Super because of it's much higher velocities.
10mm:
165grn Gold Dots: 1,589fps producing 925ft/lbs ME
180grn Gold Dots: 1,479fps producing 874ft/lbs ME
45 Super:
200grn Gold Dots: 1,307fps producing 759ft/lbs ME
That's 166ft/lbs more ME for the 165grn 10mm and 115ft/lbs more ME for the 180grn 10mm than the 45 Super.
Finally, with both calibers sighted in at 100yds, the 165grn 10mm is a flatter shooting load as one would expect, with a drop of 8" less at 200yds than the 200grn 45 Super. And yes, I shoot my 10mm pistol with iron sights at steel plates at 200yds routinely.
It's quite fun to step up to the line after someone with a scoped AK stops shooting at the steel plate and missing a few shots, and raise my pistol up with it's iron sights and fire at the same plate and ring it over and over again. (All I need do is aim at the top of the plate and the bullet will strike the plate a bit below center. It's actually quite simple.)
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I couldn't agree more. I have long, thin fingers and a large palm and so even with a Hogue Handal and a Grip Force Adapter on my G20/21L, the grip for me isn't too big for me to touch the first knuckle of my middle finger with my thumb. (A simple test to see how well your hand fits the grip.)
BTW, in the post above, I mentioned I had a Grip Force Adapter on my G20/21L. The reason I use one is not for 'slide bite' but rather I noticed that when switching between my 1911s and Glocks, that I'd present muzzle high with the Glock after shooting my 1911s.
I compared the grips and found that while they are the same angle on the front, the Glocks have a much deeper taper at the top backstrap than do the 1911s so by adding a Grip Force Adapter under my Hogue Handal, I've filled in the taper so the Glock's grip now closely matches my 1911s.
You can see the difference in the backstrap angle between my G20/21L with the Grip Force Adapter and my G23 without one.
I compared the grips and found that while they are the same angle on the front, the Glocks have a much deeper taper at the top backstrap than do the 1911s so by adding a Grip Force Adapter under my Hogue Handal, I've filled in the taper so the Glock's grip now closely matches my 1911s.
You can see the difference in the backstrap angle between my G20/21L with the Grip Force Adapter and my G23 without one.
stinkeypete
New member
It’s all about selling guns.
That’s not entirely true, but it’s a lot of what is going on.
There is also “you’re going to carry this thing around for YEARS and probably never use it, so wouldn’t it be nice if it weighed less?”
Once everyone has a Glock 19, and since they last a long long time (see “never use it”, above) maybe you need to push .40 caliber and sell a bunch of those.
Now that the .40 fad has run it’s course... my, they bark and kick, let’s go back to 9mm... but maybe make them smaller and easier to conceal! Let’s sell those a while.
Wait, let’s make it about capacity! What we sold 3 years ago is no longer all the rage! More bullets!
Do you think we can sell more if we put electronic optics (red dots) on em? They really do improve practical accuracy... Errr... hmmm, we don’t seem to be making money with optics...
Here is a shocker for ya- a solid .38 special revolver built almost 100 years ago is still an effective firearm. Is it “the best”? Best for what? Is a 32-20 revolver so hopelessly outdated as to be useless?
My latest favorite is 32 H&R Magnum in a long barrel revolver. It’s absolutely a joy to shoot although I confess to hot-rodding it considerably as I feel it’s safe to do in my Ruger (based on much reporting and experimentation as people attempted .327 level pressure with only rare failure and I am a country mile from those pressures)
Shootability is real. I have met only a few top competition shooters that could not improve their scores by using a .22.
Whatever happened to bullseye shooting? Is shooting at steel plates, spraying lead particles all over the range and dropping expensive magazines in the gravel more fun than slowly aiming and picking the antennae off of flies at 50 yards? Maybe, but it sure sells more guns and ammo.
Here is a secret: I used to own a Glock 22 long slide, all customized to race. At least 2 trigger jobs on it attempting to make something out of that sow’s ear. Two years fussing with it. Meh. Pointless. Because I had a nice 1911. I had the skills to handle the recoil and I shot so much better with the 1911. But if you want a big boom, big bore revolvers are a much bigger boom. The Glock is long gone, I never regret trading it. The 1911 is gone, sometimes I think about getting another, easy to get another. The Freedom Arms .454? That was a real beauty but not quite as nice as a custom Ruger Blackhawk... which can not be replaced. Bowen doesn’t do mundane .44 magnums any longer.
Then I stumbled on a pristine Single Six in .32 H&R magnum. The only thing I could imagine better is the one with the conversion cylinder to .32-20 but really... that’s just snobbery. What if you could have a center fire pistol that shot like a .22? They should sell like hot cakes, right??
Nope. Because marketing works and what we buy is based much on fantasy and little on reality.
That’s not entirely true, but it’s a lot of what is going on.
There is also “you’re going to carry this thing around for YEARS and probably never use it, so wouldn’t it be nice if it weighed less?”
Once everyone has a Glock 19, and since they last a long long time (see “never use it”, above) maybe you need to push .40 caliber and sell a bunch of those.
Now that the .40 fad has run it’s course... my, they bark and kick, let’s go back to 9mm... but maybe make them smaller and easier to conceal! Let’s sell those a while.
Wait, let’s make it about capacity! What we sold 3 years ago is no longer all the rage! More bullets!
Do you think we can sell more if we put electronic optics (red dots) on em? They really do improve practical accuracy... Errr... hmmm, we don’t seem to be making money with optics...
Here is a shocker for ya- a solid .38 special revolver built almost 100 years ago is still an effective firearm. Is it “the best”? Best for what? Is a 32-20 revolver so hopelessly outdated as to be useless?
My latest favorite is 32 H&R Magnum in a long barrel revolver. It’s absolutely a joy to shoot although I confess to hot-rodding it considerably as I feel it’s safe to do in my Ruger (based on much reporting and experimentation as people attempted .327 level pressure with only rare failure and I am a country mile from those pressures)
Shootability is real. I have met only a few top competition shooters that could not improve their scores by using a .22.
Whatever happened to bullseye shooting? Is shooting at steel plates, spraying lead particles all over the range and dropping expensive magazines in the gravel more fun than slowly aiming and picking the antennae off of flies at 50 yards? Maybe, but it sure sells more guns and ammo.
Here is a secret: I used to own a Glock 22 long slide, all customized to race. At least 2 trigger jobs on it attempting to make something out of that sow’s ear. Two years fussing with it. Meh. Pointless. Because I had a nice 1911. I had the skills to handle the recoil and I shot so much better with the 1911. But if you want a big boom, big bore revolvers are a much bigger boom. The Glock is long gone, I never regret trading it. The 1911 is gone, sometimes I think about getting another, easy to get another. The Freedom Arms .454? That was a real beauty but not quite as nice as a custom Ruger Blackhawk... which can not be replaced. Bowen doesn’t do mundane .44 magnums any longer.
Then I stumbled on a pristine Single Six in .32 H&R magnum. The only thing I could imagine better is the one with the conversion cylinder to .32-20 but really... that’s just snobbery. What if you could have a center fire pistol that shot like a .22? They should sell like hot cakes, right??
Nope. Because marketing works and what we buy is based much on fantasy and little on reality.
"10mm Glock 20SF is the answer. (15 + 1)"
As much as I love my various big bore revolvers and my Sig 220 .45... the above statement actually makes allot of sense. Reliable gun and a wicked potent caliber advocated by the guru himself! Grew up reading Cooper... LOVE the guy!
Now I suppose I'll have to get one... a Glock 20!!! Just what I need... another damn gun!
As much as I love my various big bore revolvers and my Sig 220 .45... the above statement actually makes allot of sense. Reliable gun and a wicked potent caliber advocated by the guru himself! Grew up reading Cooper... LOVE the guy!
Now I suppose I'll have to get one... a Glock 20!!! Just what I need... another damn gun!
Yes, but getting back to the original question, is the 9mm inadequate for the rural folks if the options are 9mm and .45. Maybe the choice of bullets helps. I think that the Speer expands well in a water medium and probably good for soft skin things like people while the XTP might be better for thicker skin things like animals.
It comes down to RECOIL sensitivity (FLINCHING!!). Most people can be trained to shoot 9mm easier than larger, more powerful and effective weapons as it has less recoil. Larger Departments have to worry about pushing people through yearly qualifications and since many new recruits of both genders have ZERO experience with firearms, the 9mm is more user friendly. Officers are often hired now based on education and equal opportunity requirements / quotas set forth by Personel department rules and NOT hired as in the past, on physical size, strength, personality and experience. Not saying some of the "new" hires don't turn out well over time, as many do. I know a few personally.
But generally speaking... hiring a 5'1", 145 pound 43 year old female with a Master's degree and a background in social work, INSTEAD of a muscular 25 year old 6', 195 pound male who did 6 years in the Marines... to patrol the streets and enforce the law, often without immediate backup... well, as a Taxpayer and active observer... I seriously question that logic.
That is another subject altogether, but does play into the topic of discussion as it is THE reason the 9mm has been adopted by so many agency's. And what is popular and utilized by Police Departments usually is depicted in the news and entertainment industry and quickly becomes entrenched in the popular culture.
.40 (or .45, etc.), caliber bullets fired out of a polymer frame weapon recoil FAR more than a 9mm out of a similar weapon.
With the improved 9mm bonded ammo available in recent years, such as Speer Gold DOT 124 HP'S (which most Departments, including mine, issue), the 9mm has become the logical choice for Administrators. Almost everyone qualifies, no complaints of discrimination, no grievances. Politics at play.
It's why the FBI moved away from the potent 10mm years ago... less recoil and better qual scores. Some Agents just couldn't handle the recoil of the powerful cartridge.
Rural folks who may be worried about aggressive animals on 4 legs as well as self defense against 2 legged predators,
should pick whatever caliber they can shoot accurately. Shot placement is the secret. If they can handle recoil and shoot well, then there are bigger and far more effective calibers to chose from than just the 9mm. The .45 acp is still one of those options.
But generally speaking... hiring a 5'1", 145 pound 43 year old female with a Master's degree and a background in social work, INSTEAD of a muscular 25 year old 6', 195 pound male who did 6 years in the Marines... to patrol the streets and enforce the law, often without immediate backup... well, as a Taxpayer and active observer... I seriously question that logic.
That is another subject altogether, but does play into the topic of discussion as it is THE reason the 9mm has been adopted by so many agency's. And what is popular and utilized by Police Departments usually is depicted in the news and entertainment industry and quickly becomes entrenched in the popular culture.
.40 (or .45, etc.), caliber bullets fired out of a polymer frame weapon recoil FAR more than a 9mm out of a similar weapon.
With the improved 9mm bonded ammo available in recent years, such as Speer Gold DOT 124 HP'S (which most Departments, including mine, issue), the 9mm has become the logical choice for Administrators. Almost everyone qualifies, no complaints of discrimination, no grievances.
Politics at play. It's why the FBI moved away from the potent 10mm years ago... less recoil and better qual scores. Some Agents just couldn't handle the recoil of the powerful cartridge.
Rural folks who may be worried about aggressive animals on 4 legs as well as self defense against 2 legged predators,
should pick whatever caliber they can shoot accurately. Shot placement is the secret. If they can handle recoil and shoot well, then there are bigger and far more effective calibers to chose from than just the 9mm. The .45 acp is still one of those options.
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COSteve: said:
I have the Grip Force Adapters on my Gen3 17 and 19, and I use the large beavertail backstraps that came in the box with my 19X and my Gen4 21. I had a problem with slide bite with the Gen3’s and the Gen4, I put the BT backstrap on the 19X when I first got it. I have Hogue Handall grip sleeves on the Gen3 17 and the 19X, and Pachmayr Grip Gloves on the Gen3 19 and the Gen4 21.
After a lot of trial & error and range time, I have no doubt in my mind that these guns set up this way point better to a target. For me at least. I’ve definitely “uglied up” these guns but I don’t care, if I decide to sell off any of these, I can switch them back to stock, but as long as I keep & shoot these, they will stay this way. Anybody else’s mileage may vary, and that is also fine.
I think these two ideas go a long way in explaining the popularity of the 9mm Luger today.
Also explains why so much work has been put into improving the "street performance" of the 9mm round.
Also covers the downloading of the .357 Magnum, but that's a topic for its own thread, I think.
Point is, the "pressure" to use the 9mm, because MOST people do better or are more easily trained with it than other calibers is a factor, if you are arming a group of people. Particularly a diverse group of people.
SO, yes, by the numbers, the 9mm is a better choice for organizations. This does not mean it is the best choice possible for use, only that it works well enough for more people.
It doesn't mean it is the best choice for any specific individual. What the cops choose (or more realistically, what gets chosen for them..) and what the military does, for their own good reasons does not mean that is the best choice for ME, or perhaps for you.
I'm not a cop, never was, and not going to be, and long past my military days. My requirements for performance, both of the cartridge and he gun, are mine, and no one else's.
How things work for me, in my hands are what determines, for me, whether or not something is "relevant".
I'm perfectly happy to be the last lemming on the cliff, waving goodbye to all those who jumped, without feeling any need to follow them...
Agree with Steve. Fit is important. Told my female cousin that (she's petite but able to qualify with the M9 in service). Don't buy a gun unless it fits and is comfortable to handle. It does no good if it's the best gun in a movie or recommendation of a gunwriter or counter-commando if it doesn't work for the individual.
Cosmodragoon
New member
This mirrors what I hear from friends in law enforcement.
I think at the end of the day, 9mm is at least "okay" for most of our emergency defensive needs around town. Having mostly lived in rural and semi-rural edge-of-town places, I've put a lot of thought into animal needs. My defensive ammo in 9mm should be fine for coyotes, which are the most likely aggressors.
I don't see much in the way of black bear or moose but I don't get out to the woods like I used to. The biggest animals I see every day are deer. They have very little fear of humans and get closer than they should but I can't imagine one attacking. The only time I imagine myself shooting one of our yard deer is if they are severely injured and need putting down or the grocery store runs out of food.
Overall, I feel better with .40 S&W but 9mm is probably okay.
Possibly a snap cap can be loaded in a magazine of .40s or .45s with factory loads. I introduce my .357 with dry firing, .38s, .38s with an empty chamber, .38 with a .357, .357, and .357 to .38. All of this is to remind the shooter to relax and not anticipate the recoil. Seeing the front sight jerk down upon pulling the trigger on an empty chamber is an unspoken reminder to the shooter to do so.
jetinteriorguy
New member
You’d be surprised how aggressive deer can be. One time when my wife and I were visiting my parents graves I heard a dog raising a ruckus on the end of the graveyard. There was a woman with her dog being attacked by three does. Apparently the dog had chased a fawn and the deer chased the dog jumping on it and kicking at it, and after leashing the dog they were also threatening her. I jumped in my car and drove toward them with my horn blaring to scare them off. They didn’t exactly run away scared, but they backed off enough for me to pick her and her dog up and drive them home safely.
From the OP:
Whether in a semi-auto or a revolver 45acp is an excellent "self defense/woods defense" round. Like everything else the bullet has to match the job of course. There is a good selection for that.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214
https://www.underwoodammo.com/products/45-acp-p-255-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose?variant=18785707622457
There are a good many useful rounds in 45 acp for that purpose from a semi and more for wheelguns.
The 45 acp and bears...
https://www.nationalparkstraveler.o...t emerged,pistol, according to park officials.
https://fishgame.com/2014/07/alaska...ill-9ft-grizzly-trying-to-get-into-his-house/
tipoc
Whether in a semi-auto or a revolver 45acp is an excellent "self defense/woods defense" round. Like everything else the bullet has to match the job of course. There is a good selection for that.
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=214
https://www.underwoodammo.com/products/45-acp-p-255-grain-hard-cast-flat-nose?variant=18785707622457
There are a good many useful rounds in 45 acp for that purpose from a semi and more for wheelguns.
The 45 acp and bears...
https://www.nationalparkstraveler.o...t emerged,pistol, according to park officials.
https://fishgame.com/2014/07/alaska...ill-9ft-grizzly-trying-to-get-into-his-house/
tipoc
While the relatively soft-shooting 9mmP has enjoyed a resurgence of popularity among shooters who have problems handling the felt recoil of the .45ACP, or using .45 pistols which have larger grip frames (and overall larger pistols), or they simply wish to have more "magazine capacity" ... the caliber itself is still relevant and not obsolete for civilian roles (which includes LE).
Granted, the .40 S&W has earned a pretty solid reputation in LE circles since it was first adopted in '90. It can be chambered in 9mm size grip frames and it doesn't detract very much in the way of magazine capacity. However, its recoil impulse is harder on most shooters and many pistols, maintenance-wise, compared to the 9/.45 calibers.
Remember the origins of the venerable .45ACP, and how large caliber, slow-moving revolver and pistol bullets were once thought sufficient to use on some large animals (even for euthanasia).
While the 9mm and .40 S&W have been vying back and forth since the .40's introduction, for being the predominant LE caliber, the .45ACP has quietly enjoyed a solid 3rd place, surprisingly remaining a not-unpopular LE caliber.
One of the other issues that sometimes affects .45 shooters is that as .45 pistols become increasingly smaller, they seem to become more demanding on both shooters (grip) and ammunition (pressure levels affecting slide velocity). Smaller 9's seem to offer an advantage in this respect, at least for the "less interested" or lesser skilled users.
Suit yourself ... taking into consideration your experience and skillset.
I've been issued duty pistols chambered in 9, .40 & .45ACP. I own and use pistols chambered in 9, .40 & .45ACP. As a LE firearms trainer I used them all with equal aplomb, but the .40's usually made me work a bit harder to maintain my skills ... and the more I used .40's, the easier I found it to shoot .45's & 9's.
I like my .40 because my BHP is accurate. And, I bought the pistol because I acquired so much range brass.
I am guessing that the .45 like the .38spcl can have less recoil felt because as a bullet caster, the suggested lead hardness (BHN) is less than the 9mm or 40cal.
Lastly, I would lean towards a .45acp because of the history of the .45. The .45LC is very similar to power to the .45acp, so I've read. Cowboys used it to defend themselves using the .45LC, so therefore, I'd think a .45acp will work. In other words, if you were sent back in time in the 1870s or into the wilderness, would you prefer to have the .45 or take your changes with the 9mm?
I am guessing that the .45 like the .38spcl can have less recoil felt because as a bullet caster, the suggested lead hardness (BHN) is less than the 9mm or 40cal.
Lastly, I would lean towards a .45acp because of the history of the .45. The .45LC is very similar to power to the .45acp, so I've read. Cowboys used it to defend themselves using the .45LC, so therefore, I'd think a .45acp will work. In other words, if you were sent back in time in the 1870s or into the wilderness, would you prefer to have the .45 or take your changes with the 9mm?
Kevin Rohrer
New member
The .45LC is very similar to power to the .45acp, so I've read.
Actually, in modern loads in a modern gun capable of SAAMI pressures (likely my older Ruger Vaquero), it is the equal of the .44mag.
Actually, in modern loads in a modern gun capable of SAAMI pressures (likely my older Ruger Vaquero), it is the equal of the .44mag.