45 ACP +P & Universal
- Thread starter jski
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Marco Califo
New member
BE-86
Frankly, Universal is not the best powder for 45 ACP. I reload 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 9mm. I have compared, purchased and loaded: Bullseye, Power Pistol, BE-86, Unique, Longshot, CFE Pistol, Silhouette, WSF; in these calibers. Not necessarily every possible combination.
I use the hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center, alliantpowder.com, Speer Bullets online data, a Lyman manual, and other online reloading data sources. That is how I decided I needed these powders. Universal is not one of them, is middling, and not a race horse for pistol calibers. The ones I listed will get you highest velocity in at least one caliber and bullet weight.
Plug your specs in at HDC and compare the results of differing powders they display in an easy to read table. You wont find Universal as a velocity leader.
So, you are asking how do I get maximum performance from a powder not up to the task. You don't. You should buy a pound of BE-86; which is also flash suppressed. If I could only use one pistol powder BE-86 is it. One pound will load about 1000 rounds (@ 7 gr. per round).
Frankly, Universal is not the best powder for 45 ACP. I reload 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 9mm. I have compared, purchased and loaded: Bullseye, Power Pistol, BE-86, Unique, Longshot, CFE Pistol, Silhouette, WSF; in these calibers. Not necessarily every possible combination.
I use the hodgdonreloading.com/reloading-data-center, alliantpowder.com, Speer Bullets online data, a Lyman manual, and other online reloading data sources. That is how I decided I needed these powders. Universal is not one of them, is middling, and not a race horse for pistol calibers. The ones I listed will get you highest velocity in at least one caliber and bullet weight.
Plug your specs in at HDC and compare the results of differing powders they display in an easy to read table. You wont find Universal as a velocity leader.
So, you are asking how do I get maximum performance from a powder not up to the task. You don't. You should buy a pound of BE-86; which is also flash suppressed. If I could only use one pistol powder BE-86 is it. One pound will load about 1000 rounds (@ 7 gr. per round).
BE-86? Probably
If I had any experience with Universal, I'd share.
I think Marco Califo is on the right track for sure.
My highest performing (max velocity; and likely, pressure - "+P," if you will) 45 ACP ammo was achieved with Power Pistol and Unique - which both have a burn rate very close to BE-86; especially, Unique. Power Pistol is a bit slower. BE-86 is basically flash-suppressed Power Pistol; but, that flash suppressant seems to increase the burn rate just a touch - putting it real close to Unique.
I have BE-86, but am relatively new to it. I have never used it for 45 ACP, however. I have no need to. When I load for max velocity with 45ACP they get the Power Pistol treatment. No need to do yet another workup using BE-86 for me. But it would be a good choice, I have no doubt.
If I had any experience with Universal, I'd share.
I think Marco Califo is on the right track for sure.
My highest performing (max velocity; and likely, pressure - "+P," if you will) 45 ACP ammo was achieved with Power Pistol and Unique - which both have a burn rate very close to BE-86; especially, Unique. Power Pistol is a bit slower. BE-86 is basically flash-suppressed Power Pistol; but, that flash suppressant seems to increase the burn rate just a touch - putting it real close to Unique.
I have BE-86, but am relatively new to it. I have never used it for 45 ACP, however. I have no need to. When I load for max velocity with 45ACP they get the Power Pistol treatment. No need to do yet another workup using BE-86 for me. But it would be a good choice, I have no doubt.
Power Pistol makes bullets go fast. And yes, it runs clean - as most highly energetic propellants do.
It's my go-to for most all my high-performance loadings: 9mm, 10mm, 357 Mag (125's), and 45 ACP. Only 44 Mag and heavy (158's) 357 Magnum get something slower.
I can't say enough good things about Power Pistol. It is energetic. Very energetic. So it is also unforgiving. Those with less experience may be better served with AA#5, AA#7, or HS-6. They're more lackadaisical, offering more forgiveness when load workups go a bit too far.
CAUTION: The following post (or a page linked to) includes or discusses loading data not covered by currently published sources of tested data for this cartridge (QuickLOAD or Gordon's Reloading Tool data is not professionally tested). USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The Firing Line, nor the staff of TFL assumes any liability for any damage or injury resulting from the use of this information.
EXCEPT...The OP doesn't ask for maximum performance. He asks for a +P pressure load using Universal. It may be the only powder he has available for the task.
Based on internal ballistics software, I think you can multiply a standard pressure load of Univeral by 1.046 to get a +P load. In other words, a 4.6% charge increase. Watch out for pressure signs or heavily pregnant cases, or a sense that the gun is battering itself too hard. This will not be close enough to proof pressure to be a direct danger, but case life can be shortened by it, so if you get bulges in your cases from this load level, I would not reuse them.
EXCEPT...The OP doesn't ask for maximum performance. He asks for a +P pressure load using Universal. It may be the only powder he has available for the task.
Based on internal ballistics software, I think you can multiply a standard pressure load of Univeral by 1.046 to get a +P load. In other words, a 4.6% charge increase. Watch out for pressure signs or heavily pregnant cases, or a sense that the gun is battering itself too hard. This will not be close enough to proof pressure to be a direct danger, but case life can be shortened by it, so if you get bulges in your cases from this load level, I would not reuse them.
UncleNick:
Hodgdon Website shows 5" barrel/45ACP/230FMJ*/Universal/5.6gr/16.8kCUP/844fps
* 230, Hornady FMJ/FP (1.2" OAL)
Matching that combo up for in ballistic software baselines at 15,393psi/844fps.
Adding 4.6% to powder weight --> Universal/~5.9gr --> 17,069/881fps
Is that really SAAMI +P territory ?
Hodgdon Website shows 5" barrel/45ACP/230FMJ*/Universal/5.6gr/16.8kCUP/844fps
* 230, Hornady FMJ/FP (1.2" OAL)
Matching that combo up for in ballistic software baselines at 15,393psi/844fps.
Adding 4.6% to powder weight --> Universal/~5.9gr --> 17,069/881fps
Is that really SAAMI +P territory ?
I did that in both QL and GRT and got nothing below 19,300 psi. So, unless you used a different program, something is amis in the setup.
Regardless of the prediction, the 4.6% increase in charge weight raises the pressure about 9½%, which is the difference between standard pressure and +P in the transducer system (there is no +P in the copper crusher standard). The 16.8 kCUP corresponds to about 19,600 psi by Transducer (SAAMI MAPs are 18 kCUP and 21 kpsi for crusher and transducer testing the same maximum pressure loads). The tests done by Hodgdon had high values about 7% above the mean, so they kept it down to 16.8kCUP to avoid exceeding MAP with individual rounds. The 4.6% increase should avoid exceed +P.
Regardless of the prediction, the 4.6% increase in charge weight raises the pressure about 9½%, which is the difference between standard pressure and +P in the transducer system (there is no +P in the copper crusher standard). The 16.8 kCUP corresponds to about 19,600 psi by Transducer (SAAMI MAPs are 18 kCUP and 21 kpsi for crusher and transducer testing the same maximum pressure loads). The tests done by Hodgdon had high values about 7% above the mean, so they kept it down to 16.8kCUP to avoid exceeding MAP with individual rounds. The 4.6% increase should avoid exceed +P.
I didn't pay any attention to predicted velocity; just to the +P to standard MAP ratio, as you can't safely increase velocity by going over pressure. You find with most powders and cartridges that small changes in peak pressure correspond pretty well to changing the powder charge by the square root of the pressure change ratio, and that worked out here. I also don't rely on the pressure predictions of the interior ballistics software to be any closer to the crusher and transducer readings than they are to each other, as the software is developed by comparing results of readings taken on the CIP type transducers using their procedures, and these can disagree with the SAAMI conformal transducer method pretty substantially in some instances. The various pressures chosen by SAAMI members are based on their instrumental system readings, so I just go with the ratios.
Also, in this instance I notice the GRT software puts the energy content of Universal at 4020 kJ/kg, where QuickLOAD has it as 4350 kJ/kg. Making this change alone will bring QL's velocity much more in line with Hodgdon's measured velocity. The peak pressure will still go down, but you can see in super-slow motion shots of the muzzles of pistols and by looking at heat oxides and soot on the sides of 45 Auto brass that there is gas bypass and loss before chamber obturation by the brass is achieved. This means it is less perfect than the barrel modeled in the software, so I am not surprised that the models get a little more velocity per psi than the actual test barrels do with these low powder space loads.
Also, in this instance I notice the GRT software puts the energy content of Universal at 4020 kJ/kg, where QuickLOAD has it as 4350 kJ/kg. Making this change alone will bring QL's velocity much more in line with Hodgdon's measured velocity. The peak pressure will still go down, but you can see in super-slow motion shots of the muzzles of pistols and by looking at heat oxides and soot on the sides of 45 Auto brass that there is gas bypass and loss before chamber obturation by the brass is achieved. This means it is less perfect than the barrel modeled in the software, so I am not surprised that the models get a little more velocity per psi than the actual test barrels do with these low powder space loads.
PM'd you w/ Graphic, UncleNick
In all the years I've run QL against actual velocity data, I've never seen this dramatic a divergence.
I have to have blundered somewhere.
I'm tempted (tomorrow) to put things to a test at the range using the Hodgdon load/data (230grLRN/Univ/5.4/1.2"OAL)to see which better reflects reality.
(You can bet I'm going to have a 17# spring installed)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I note your comment on the different Energy densities between QL and GRT.
FWIW: I ran a trial earlier today w/ my5.5"/ 45 Colt using the Lyman 452424(30:01)/Universal/8.0gr in a search for 900fps (LABRADAR)
Using default parameters QuickLoad absolutely nailed it.
'tis a puzzlement....
In all the years I've run QL against actual velocity data, I've never seen this dramatic a divergence.
I have to have blundered somewhere.
I'm tempted (tomorrow) to put things to a test at the range using the Hodgdon load/data (230grLRN/Univ/5.4/1.2"OAL)to see which better reflects reality.
(You can bet I'm going to have a 17# spring installed)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I note your comment on the different Energy densities between QL and GRT.
FWIW: I ran a trial earlier today w/ my5.5"/ 45 Colt using the Lyman 452424(30:01)/Universal/8.0gr in a search for 900fps (LABRADAR)
Using default parameters QuickLoad absolutely nailed it.
'tis a puzzlement....
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For those who were looking at loading 45 ACP+P to get 900+ fps & expansion...
I tested what I could get with pure lead at those velocities:
Note-1: the HP started at 242gr, and ended up at 241gr after recovery -- effectively no loss of mass.
Note-2: While the 1,500fps-on-impact 357Mag expanded fully/beautifully w/ a standard cast LSW design, even hollowpointing a 900 fps 45 SWC bullet didn't really help things.
I'd suggest sticking w/ Gold Dot bullet -- and you don't need to push it that hard,\.
.
I tested what I could get with pure lead at those velocities:
Note-1: the HP started at 242gr, and ended up at 241gr after recovery -- effectively no loss of mass.
Note-2: While the 1,500fps-on-impact 357Mag expanded fully/beautifully w/ a standard cast LSW design, even hollowpointing a 900 fps 45 SWC bullet didn't really help things.
I'd suggest sticking w/ Gold Dot bullet -- and you don't need to push it that hard,\.
.
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Yup... (Though I find interesting that Speer puts their Gold Dot ammunition out at 910 fps)
https://www.luckygunner.com/45-acp-230-grain-p-jhp-speer-gold-dot-g2-20-rounds
As I'm playing w/cast (and SWCs for their metplat) I think I'll run actual pure lead closer
to 200gr as hard as I dare w/ Universal (w/ a 17# spring) to see if expansion ever really
starts at ACP velocities.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...cast-boolits&p=5099015&viewfull=1#post5099015
* As noted, Universal gets less & less useful the lighter you go... but what the heck.....
https://www.luckygunner.com/45-acp-230-grain-p-jhp-speer-gold-dot-g2-20-rounds
As I'm playing w/cast (and SWCs for their metplat) I think I'll run actual pure lead closer
to 200gr as hard as I dare w/ Universal (w/ a 17# spring) to see if expansion ever really
starts at ACP velocities.
https://castboolits.gunloads.com/sh...cast-boolits&p=5099015&viewfull=1#post5099015
* As noted, Universal gets less & less useful the lighter you go... but what the heck.....
Marco Califo
New member
Speaking of 45 ACP 230 grain Expansion
Speaking of 45 ACP 230 grain Expansion, this is a link to an expansion test of firing Berrys hybrid hollow-point into a row of water jugs. At 943 fps they DO EXPAND close to doubling in diameter: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEo5rmiTc3E] [Google Barrys Hybrid Hollow points simple expansion test]
The Berrys box says they expand at 825 - 975 fps. These bullets are cast, then plated, with no exposed lead. Speer Gold Dot hollow-points and Hornady XTP are of similar construction, but have lead exposed in the hollow.
Speer data for 230 grain Gold Dots show Universal in this range, at the lower end with starting to max loads maxing out at 917 fps.
https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/45_Automatic_230_GDHP.pdf
Personally, and per Speer, other powders can give higher velocities.
Personally, I find the 185 grain and 200 grain 45 ACP loadings yield better velocities and energy. Using a formula for energy, I made this table with achievable velocities (not using Universal, although I added a row for Universal). These are what I am loading:
Cartridge Weight Velocity Energy in Foot lbs.
45 ACP 185 1172 563 BE-86
45 ACP 200 xxxx xxx CFE Pistol (Load has changed at HDC)
45 ACP 230 1009 520 Silhouette
45 ACP 230 917 429 Universal
Speaking of 45 ACP 230 grain Expansion, this is a link to an expansion test of firing Berrys hybrid hollow-point into a row of water jugs. At 943 fps they DO EXPAND close to doubling in diameter: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qEo5rmiTc3E] [Google Barrys Hybrid Hollow points simple expansion test]
The Berrys box says they expand at 825 - 975 fps. These bullets are cast, then plated, with no exposed lead. Speer Gold Dot hollow-points and Hornady XTP are of similar construction, but have lead exposed in the hollow.
Speer data for 230 grain Gold Dots show Universal in this range, at the lower end with starting to max loads maxing out at 917 fps.
https://reloadingdata.speer.com/downloads/speer/reloading-pdfs/handgun/45_Automatic_230_GDHP.pdf
Personally, and per Speer, other powders can give higher velocities.
Personally, I find the 185 grain and 200 grain 45 ACP loadings yield better velocities and energy. Using a formula for energy, I made this table with achievable velocities (not using Universal, although I added a row for Universal). These are what I am loading:
Cartridge Weight Velocity Energy in Foot lbs.
45 ACP 185 1172 563 BE-86
45 ACP 200 xxxx xxx CFE Pistol (Load has changed at HDC)
45 ACP 230 1009 520 Silhouette
45 ACP 230 917 429 Universal
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`Got the Berry's HP-Hybrids in this evening
Loaded three each for velocity check (only) before sunset
Used modified Universal Powder factors in Quickload*
- 4000 kJ/kg powder energy content (closer to GRT's model)
- Ratio of specific heats of 1.200
- Burn rate factor of 4.000
- Progressivity factor to 1.2752 (borrowed from GRT)cussions
- Resized Starline case volume 26.5 (using resized volume for cartridges < 30kpsi)
Berry's HP-Hybrid/230gr/0.610" length
2.10" OAL
Universal Powder/5.9gr/FedLrgPstl
Gov't 1911/5" (using 17# spring)
Quickload Estimated: 17,222psi/859fps/100% burn
Actual Muzzle Vel(fps): 851, 858, 855 (LABRADAR)
For info only.
NOT A PRESCRIPTION FOR RELOADING
DO NOT USE OTHER THAN FOR CALIBRATION/WORKUP
* Offline discussion going back and forth w/ another well-respected Forum member
(Denton Bramwell being consulted)
.
Loaded three each for velocity check (only) before sunset
Used modified Universal Powder factors in Quickload*
- 4000 kJ/kg powder energy content (closer to GRT's model)
- Ratio of specific heats of 1.200
- Burn rate factor of 4.000
- Progressivity factor to 1.2752 (borrowed from GRT)cussions
- Resized Starline case volume 26.5 (using resized volume for cartridges < 30kpsi)
Berry's HP-Hybrid/230gr/0.610" length
2.10" OAL
Universal Powder/5.9gr/FedLrgPstl
Gov't 1911/5" (using 17# spring)
Quickload Estimated: 17,222psi/859fps/100% burn
Actual Muzzle Vel(fps): 851, 858, 855 (LABRADAR)
For info only.
NOT A PRESCRIPTION FOR RELOADING
DO NOT USE OTHER THAN FOR CALIBRATION/WORKUP
* Offline discussion going back and forth w/ another well-respected Forum member
(Denton Bramwell being consulted)
.
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