.45 ACP and .45 Colt

zrt360

Inactive
I have a fealing i am going to sound like a complete idiot but i am going to risk it. I have a Taurus Model 24/7-OSS-DS45 its a .45 ACP. I am thinking about purchasing a Taurus Judge and the specs say its a .45 colt. I was just wondering what the difference is between the .45 ACP and the .45 Colt rounds. Im fairly new to pistols, ive always been more into rifles so take it easy on me.

Thanks in advance for any advice.
 
.45 ACP - Cartridge length .898", rimless

.45 Colt - Cartridge length 1.285", rimmed, would not fit, chamber in an .45 ACP pistol.

One cartridge can not be fired in another type of gun. I have heard of people, not so bright, trying to fire the ACP out of guns designed to fire the .45 Colt and even the .410 shotgun. Don't remember any positive results from either.

This is actually a very good question and do not let anyone tell you that the ammo is interchangeable. Some gun counter clerks are not aware of the difference.
 
Uncle Buck tagged it...

the only thing the same with the two cartridges is the diameter of the bullet... sort of... the case is entirely different...

The Judge is one more funky revolver.... massive cylinder on that thing, so that it can take .410 shot gun shells too.
 
This is actually a very good question and do not let anyone tell you that the ammo is interchangeable. Some gun counter clerks are not aware of the difference

I wouldn't doubt that for a second.

I have had experiences talking to gun clerks before purchasing a firearm where I was shocked at how little they knew about basic stuff.

For instance, 3 weeks ago I was looking for a .22LR handgun. I choose one and decided to buy some ammo with it to take directly to the range.

On the box of .22s it has the velocity "and I knew that was out of a rifle" so I asked the clerk if he knew approximately the FPS out of a 5 inch barrel.

If he had said he didn't know that would of been fine but he told me that the FPS stated on the box is what it always shoots out of any gun.

......
 
caliber_bullets_4.JPG
 
Welcome to The Firing Line!

You've been given good advice so far. If you absolutely have to shoot .45acp in the Judge check with these guys. They might be able to machine the cylinder to accept moon clips. I'll qualify that statement by admitting I don't know if the Judge can handle .45acp pressure or if moonclips are available to fit.

Without a full or half moon clip a .45acp will drop right through a .45Colt cylinder. A .45AR (auto rim) will stop at the right spot, but the rim will be too thick for the cylinder to close.
 
If the Judge were modified to shoot .45 ACP with moon clips, it would no longer shoot .45 Colt or .410, as removing material from the rear of the cylinder to accommodate the clips would cause the rimmed rounds to chamber too far from the firing pin.
 
Since cartridge size has already been addressed, I'll address cartridge power.

.45 Colt is a little different than primarily semi-auto cartridges such as the .45ACP, in that there are essentially 3 different power levels available.
  1. "Cowboy Action" or "Target" ammo intended for low-recoil practice and shooting sports that emphasize rapid-fire, making low recoil advantageous. Most of these loads generate muzzle velocities in the neighborhood of 700 fps, making it a bit slower and less potent than most .45ACP SD loads, but "Cowboy" loads generally use round-nose lead bullets that aren't intended for SD use.
  2. Standard SD loads, which usually sling a 200-230gr lead bullet at ~900 fps. This is more powerful than .45ACP, albeit not as powerful as large-caliber Magnum revolver cartridges.
  3. "+P", "Ruger", or "Rifle" loads, which are loaded to power levels rivaling Magnum revolver calibers, and sling bullets ~200-300 fps faster than a standard loading. These loads are intended for newer SA revolver designs and lever rifles, but are not safe in DA revolvers such as the Judge.
 
quick question to add to this thread and possibly help out zrt360 as well...

how does .45ACP stack up in terms of stopping power and hydrostatic shock vs. other popular semi-auto combat calibers like 9mm, .40S&W or 10mm?

(I'm pretty new to handguns also and the only gun I own thus far is chambered in .40S&W)

my next gun purchase, whenever I can raise the funds for it, will probably be .45ACP or 9mm and will probably be used both for home defense, and target shooting for fun. i don't know a whole heck of alot about either.
 
They are about the same. 45's are about, twice as heavy as some of the light 9mm rounds but also twice as slow. That's good for penetrating bigger bones.
 
Have you noticed that every handgun round intended for self-defense utilizes an expanding bullet? Everyone agrees that the size of the hole is very important. Even if a .45 bullet doesn't expand, you are guaranteed a hole of at least .45" diameter with .45 ACP. No other common self-defense round can guarantee that. :)
 
A good machinist-gunsmith can cut the rear face of the cylinder to clear the clips for ACPs and leave enough of the original chamber edge to headspace the Colts as before. Pinnacle says they will convert a 5 shot Taurus .45 Colt to take ACPs for $85.00. The question here is whether the Judge cylinder has the same chamber spacing as the Tracker so that the available clips will work. Probably but not certainly.
http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp

The other consideration is that .45 ACP chamber pressure is higher than the maximum .45 Colt (or .410 shotshell.) There seems to be enough safety margin that Pinnacle is willing to make the conversion. Taurus has made .45 ACPs on that frame size, so they think so.
 
If the Judge were modified to shoot .45 ACP with moon clips, it would no longer shoot .45 Colt or .410, as removing material from the rear of the cylinder to accommodate the clips would cause the rimmed rounds to chamber too far from the firing pin.

When .45Colt guns are converted for moon clips you can still shoot .45Colt in them. The rim isn't supported all the way around, but it still head spaces properly. I considered this modification for my Redhawk, but decided I could reload the .45Colt any way I wanted to instead.

(I must type too slow. Mr Watson me to this.)
 
SOME will work. Older .45 Colt to .45 ACP conversions sometimes didn't retain the ability to shoot .45 Colt. These days people seem to have got it down the conversions shoot both calibers.
 
RickB, "Have you noticed that every handgun round intended for self-defense utilizes an expanding bullet? Everyone agrees that the size of the hole is very important. Even if a .45 bullet doesn't expand, you are guaranteed a hole of at least .45" diameter with .45 ACP. No other common self-defense round can guarantee that. "
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While the 45 is definitely a great round in any format, i do not agree that bullets must be expandable to make great stoppers. I think reliable feed, penetration, recoil (in that order) is more important than anything for pistols.
 
According to my books

Head diameter of the .45ACP should be .476" while the .45 Colt should be .480". To me (and I could be wrong) having a chamber .004 larger in diameter at the head of the case (.45acp in .45 Colt chamber) doesn't seem like a good idea.
 
It's no worse than using reformed .30-'06 brass to shoot in a 7.7 Arisaka. These rounds operate at much higher pressure than .45acp. The '06 case swells a bit above the web upon firing. I've never had one fail, but I do toss them after four or five loadings to be on the safe side. It's not the best thing to do but it was a necessity for me when 7.7 brass was over a dollar a pop.
 
It probably will work

And Iv'e used .30-06 brass to make 7.7Jap myself. But the difference is .002 between those case heads, not the .004 between the ACP and the Colt. I still think ist a foolish idea, even if it will work without serious risk. Personally, I think the cases might have an unaccteptabe rate of splitting, but I haven't tried it, so I can't say for absolute certain.

Expand even tough .45ACP brass at the head and it itsn't going to last very long, if its even safely reloadable. And in a revolver, .45ACP does nothing the .45 Colt doesn't, ballistically.

SO, spend the money to have a Judge altered to take moon clips for the ACP? I can't see why. Economy? Doubtful. How many boxes of acp would have to be shot for the price difference between them an .45 Colt to equal the cost of the conversion? Going to shoot the Judge that much? And winding up with (most likely) unusable brass doesn't get you much until you sell it for scrap by the pound!

Then there is the accuracy thing. I would think that the even longer jump to the rifling (than the colt), combined with the jacketed bullets common to ACP ammo would have an effect on their accuracy, and not a good one. And then there is the possibility of a drastically different point of inpact. All in all, I don't see the idea of cutting a Judge (or other .45 Colt revolver) to take ACP (in the same cylinder) to be a good or workable idea. My combo guns (Ruger Blackhawks) use separate cylinders, and work well. But they are single actions, where swapping the cylinder is a simple task.
 
The .45 Colt (often called .45 Long Colt) is primarily a revolver cartridge while the .45 ACP (often called .45 Automatic or .45 Auto) is primarily a semi-automatic cartridge.

The .45 Colt was originally introduced in the Colt Model 1873 Single Action Army revolver. It was originally loaded with black powder and thusly is a much larger case than the .45 ACP. Over the years, this cartridge has been chambered in a wide variety of single and double action revolvers as well as carbines of differing action types. To my knowledge, there has never been a semi-automatic handgun chambered for .45 Colt. Standard ballistics are a 250-260grn bullet at 800-900fps although in certain guns like Ruger revolvers, Freedom Arms revolvers, and Thompson Center Single shot handguns and rifles it can be safely loaded power levels roughly equal to a .44 Magnum (note that not all .45 Colt firearms are safe to do this in).

The .45 ACP was devised by John Browning and was chambered for a number of prototype handguns but the first to achieve widespread manufacture in this caliber was the Colt M1911 semi-automatic pistol. The .45 ACP was designed to give approximately the same ballistics as the .45 Colt handguns then in use in a semi-automatic platform and it does this farly well with standard loadings delivering a 230grn bullet at 800-900fps. Because of the development of smokeless powder, the .45 ACP case was made substantially shorter than that of the .45 Colt (it takes much less smokeless powder to give the same velocity than it does black powder). Also, because semi-automatics headspace and extract differently than revolvers, the .45 ACP is a rimless case (there actually is a rim, but it's the same diameter as the rest of the case as opposed to the .45 Colt and most other revolver cartridges whose rims are larger in diameter than the rest of the case to ensure proper headspacing and extraction). The .45 ACP has been chambered for semi-automatic pistols and carbines as well as some revolvers. In double-action revolvers such as the Colt and S&W M1917's, the .45 ACP is typically used in conjuction with a moonclip which holds multiple rounds and provides a surface for the extractor to work against. In single action revolvers such as the Ruger Blackhawk, a lip is machined into the cylinder that allows the case to headspace on the cartridge mouth similar to headspacing in a semi-automatic chamber (extracion is accomplished with an extractor rod just like any other single-action revolver). Single action revolvers chambered for .45 ACP are often provided with two interchangeable cylinders thusly allowing either .45ACP or .45 Colt ammunition to be fired depending upon which cylinder is installed.

As far as how the .45 ACP stacks up as a self-defense cartridge, that is a topic of great debate (as you'll soon learn if you stick around here long). Few would argue that the .45 ACP is an excellent self-defense cartridge (it has been standard issue for many militaries and police forces including the U.S. military from 1911 until 1985 when it was replaced by the 9mm), but the debate lies in how much better, if any, it is than other common self-defense cartridges such as 9mm, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, and .38 Special. Personally, I think that with proper shot placement and premium JHP ammunition, the difference between the service class of cartridges (.45 ACP, .40 S&W, .357 Sig, 9mm, and .38 Special +P) is negligable and the results are likely to be nearly identical. Only in smaller cartridges like .380 ACP, .32 ACP and .22 Long Rifle or in Magnum class cartridges like .357 Magnum, certain 10mm Auto Loadings, .41 Magnum and .44 Magnum are you likely to see a noticable difference in terminal performance. The .45 Colt's terminal performance is subject to what type of loading is used, in standard loadings it will be very similar to .45 ACP and in heavy loadings for strong guns like those I previously mentioned it will be more similar to the .44 Magnum.

As a hunting handgun, the .45 ACP is pretty marginal for deer-sized game and completely inadequate for larger game like Bear or Moose. The .45 Colt on the other hand can make a splendid hunting handgun with the right loadings from the right gun. A 250grn+ bullet at 1000fps or more makes an excellent deer cartridge and with the heavier loads it is capable to taking about anything that a .44 Magnum can.

A Taurus Judge would not be a good handgun for big game hunting as the long cylinder is detrimental to accuracy with .45 Colt ammunition. Many of the reports I've read report keyholing (this is where the bullet destabilizes and begins to tumble end-over-end) at 25 yards with .45 Colt ammo. In addition to this, the Judge is not able to handle the pressure of .44 Magnum-Level loadings that other stronger revolver can. As a self-defense gun, a .45 Colt-loaded Judge would be acceptable though no better than any other so-chambered DA revolver. The main advantage to the Judge is the ability to use .410 Shotgun shells (it is listed as chambered in .45 Colt to avoid the stringent regulations on shotguns with barrels shorter than 18 inches). While the use of .410 Shells for self-defense is debatable (low pellet count with buckshot, poor accuracy and shallow penetration with slugs, and shallow penetration with birdshot), a Judge loaded with birdshot would be useful for short-range hunting of small game like rabbits and squirrels and for elimination of pests such as rats and venomous snakes.
 
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