45 ACP 230 gr vs 185 +P gr

Preserve,

Why are you pushing low power subsonic ammo? Maybe you are a Navy SEAL fond of sentry removal with suppressed arms?

Suppressed shooting for CCW is mostly illegal and impractical because of the bulky silencer.

A 180 gr bullet in 40 S&W is a poor choice. It is low power and subsonic. If one is not restrained by needing subsonic bullets to shoot through a silencer, 135gr and 150gr bullets in 40 S&W are far more powerful and the higher velocity gives far better potential for expansion. (i.e. 135gr and 150gr bullets in 40 S&W are more effective at immobilizing your CCW target.)

Be sure to test your ammo for flash if there is a chance you may need to use it at night.

Good luck!

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

P.S. I am puzzled by the number of contributors on this forum who somehow “feel” the heaviest bullet in a caliber is the most effective. I think they might “feel” the heaviest bullet is the most powerful. The heaviest bullet available in many calibers is way off the optimum, giving LOW power, POOR expansion, WEAK stopping and often DANGEROUS over-penetration for lack of expansion.
 
Umm...
I would never carry 230gr ammo because it is proven to over-penetrate
Click to expand...

Proven? Really? Are we talking about FMJ, or JHP?

If we're talking about ball, OK, but I don't think he was asking about ball, because I don't know of too many companies providing 185gr +P .45ACP ball.

If we're talking about Hollowpoints, I've asked before, and yet to see the PROOF you speak of (once again presuming we're referring to JHP). I've asked before, and you've offered me none. I'm still waiting for all these stories...

To return to the topic. With .45 the two schools (Fackler et al. and M&S et al.) have no disagreement. The 230gr JHP's work, and work very, very well (for a handgun).

There are few people who will recommend against the 230gr JHP in .45 ACP. It being a popular opinion doesn't make it correct. It is correct because there is a mountain of evidence saying so.

A quick visit to http://www.firearmstactical.com is all the evidence anyone should need.

There's more to bullet performance than kinetic energy. It might sound logical that a bullet with more energy does more damage, but what seems so isn't. To put it in terms of physics. Energy is only the potential to do work. Energy is often wasted. Temporary cavities (in handgun bullets) have been proven to be an ineffective means of increasing wounding (www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm). Additionally, so is continued bullet deformation after the bullet has fully expanded (would you rather the energy be used to bend lead, or to move the bullet forward? hmmm....). Heavier bullets tend to produce a smaller stretch cavity, and a larger permanent (crush) cavity i.e. they make bigger (and deeper) holes.

Does this ignore the "reality of the street" another name for "hearsay and conjencture" nay. For a mere examination of http://www.evanmarshall.com/towert (when the site is working) will reveal that the 230gr JHP .45 ACP has a higher OSS% than the lighter weight bullets.

Nor does this ignore actual case studies, if one were willing to peruse back copies of the IWBA journal, and the numerous documents published by various California law enforcement agencies one would find that despite moving a few hundred feet per second slower than lighter weight bullets, bullets can, and are often designed in such a manner as to expand reliably at lower velocities.

Such information is of course all just lies, fabricated by ALL of these organizations (and regurgitated by me) for the purposes of fooling the shooting public (you). Don't be fooled, read the data (it's long), read the previous posts here, and make your own decision. If you're responsible enough to own a firearm, then you're responsible enough to read things and judge them as truth, or fiction; good science or bad science, and live with the consequences of such a judgement.

-Morgan
 
FBI and 230 g. Golden Sabres

The FBI SWAT team has mandated use of 230 g. golden sabres for their penetration (through auto glass, leather, etc.) and expansion. Remington has recently come up with a bonded version of the Golden Sabre further improving its performance.
 
I believe the un-bonded Golden Sabers had numerous failures (jacket seperation). Any idea if the new-and-improved version is available to the common folk? I'd be interested to compare the accuracy performance to the Gold Dot, which is excellent.

BTW, The "BJHP" is not "bonded JHP", it's "brass JHP".

Thanks!
 
TCW -

You're half right about the .45 Golden Sabres. The brass jacket does tend to separate, but it does not effect the round's penetration, expansion or teminal effectiveness. With the .45 ACP Golden Sabres, I would not go so far as to describe the jacket separation as "failures."

George -
I would never carry 230gr ammo because it is proven to over-penetrate.
Click to expand...
The .45 ACP 230 grain rounds has never been proven to "over-penetrate" even in the FMJ configuaration. In fact, the .45 ACP has a slight propensity to under-penetrate--particularly in the rounds that expand early or quickly. Actually, if you are really and truly worried about over-penetration, you probably should stick with 230-grain rounds. In the event of a failure to expand, the +P 185-grain rounds are more likely to exit the body (and travel further) than any 230-grain round.

To be honest, you cannot go wrong with just about any .45 ACP round above 185 grains or above. Your "best bet" would be stick with you pistol and your "likes" best--that is the round that feeds reliably, is accurate, and you can shoot well (recovery times, etc.). My personal preference (and carry round) is the Proload 200-grain +P Gold Dot (and I like the Blazer version for practice), but it's not everybody's "cup of tea."

(Though maybe one day when my ego's up to the bruising it will take, I might start a thread "200 Grains Is The Ideal Bullet Weight for the .45 ACP.")
 
45ACP - Post Mortem

Overpenetration? With 230gr FMJ? NOT in my experience!
The most memorable handgun homacide I recall from my year+ job as a Corinor's Investigator was a justifiable homacide.
A BG attempted to rob a gunstore with a sawed-off singleshot rifle, He got off one round at the store clerk,- missed!
The clerk shot and killed the robber with a fully loaded 45ACP
that he was carrying as part of his job, and ahd apparently trained with - a Lot!
Expended the entire magazine and the round in the chamber into the holdup man, the first round was point blank, probably killing the idiot instantly...the FMJ 230gr bullet was still in the perps skull, having reduced his brain to goo. :eek:
The clerk expended the rest of the contents of the mag into the perp's remains as he was thrown backwards through the air by the force of the first headshot. Nice group! Points on entry were
in the groin and innerthighs, with the path of the 7 rounds up through the length of the body, most imbedding in the top of the chest cavity after having perforated nearly every vital organ in the way. All bullets were retrieved in the autopsey, any one of which apparently caused at least one fatal wound, according to the wound channels worked out by the forensic pathologist.
The Post took 2 full days... Cause of death was listed as gunshot wounds sufferd in an exchange of gunfire during the comission of a felony. Justifiable.
Nothing overpenetrated, all of the energy of all rounds was expended in the target.
This is why I have a 45ACP CCW gun...loaded with 230gr FMJ's:D
 
Here's one more vote for the Gold Dot. I prefer +P 230 GDs from ProLoad. Something like 930 fps from a 5" gun like my 1911. I have evaluated it through heavy clothing and into water bottles and it functions extremely well.
 
We must be interpreting the data differently.

Other 230 gr 45 ACP fans argue the 230 gr ammo is necessary because you MUST have an exit wound to be effective! (An exit wound shows the bullet did not expend all its energy in the target and an innocent down range is at risk of injury.) Now you say 45 ACP in 230 gr will not exit????

Gelatin tests of Golden Saber 230 gr JHP shows 19” penetration! Unless your suspect is bent over and you are taking a tail shot, you don’t need 19” of penetration to reach the heart or brain! (If shooting in self defense, why would you be taking a tail shot?)

Think about it, why use 230 gr ammo in 45 ACP when 185 gr ammo is more powerful and has more potential for expansion? Both bullets have the same diameter. If penetration is important, why not use a low expanding 185 gr which will make the same
size hole as 230 gr with more shock and more damage?

I can see no benefit to 230 gr ammo in 45 ACP unless you need low power subsonic ammo for suppressed shooting or you hope to wound several troops standing in a row on the battlefield.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona

P.S. I am puzzled by the number of contributors on this forum who somehow “feel” the heaviest bullet in a caliber is the most effective. I think they might “feel” the heaviest bullet is the most powerful. The heaviest bullet available in many calibers is way off the optimum, giving LOW power, POOR expansion, WEAK stopping and often DANGEROUS over-penetration for lack of expansion.
 
(Though maybe one day when my ego's up to the bruising it will take, I might start a thread "200 Grains Is The Ideal Bullet Weight for the .45 ACP.")

According to The Firearms Tactical Institute you may be in good company: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs9.htm

".45 ACP
If your handgun has a barrel length of 4 inches or longer, consider the 230 grain Gold Dot JHP.

If your handgun has a barrel length less than 4 inches, consider the 200 grain Gold Dot JHP."
 
In reply to:

"P.S. I am puzzled by the number of contributors on this forum who somehow “feel” the heaviest bullet in a caliber is the most effective. I think they might “feel” the heaviest bullet is the most powerful. The heaviest bullet available in many calibers is way off the optimum, giving LOW power, POOR expansion, WEAK stopping and often DANGEROUS over-penetration for lack of expansion."

That's obviously why the military picked 230 g. hardball and the FBI SWAT team mandated 230 g. Golden Sabres (in fact a bonded version of the Golden Sabre is now used) for use in their SA .45s
 
Buy a case of whatever functions 100% of the time and has the best accuracy...If you can afford it, buy two...Shoot one to confirm function and use the other for carry. Try to get the same lot...if not, then use the same case for both and stay safe...No matter what anyones' pistol uses, unless you confirm it in -yours'- you don't know spit...Good luck...
bandit.gif
 
gyp,

I agree with your point on stocking up ammo that you have proven to be reliable.
However accuracy is of secondary concern in a CCW weapon. Incapacitation capability of the round is more important than fraction of an inch deviation in accuracy.

Happy shooting!

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
colorado,

The 230 gr hardball is the ideal choice for the military: Perfect for suppressed shooting and a good choice for general battlefield requirements.

Why would the FBI SWAT team mandate 230 g. Golden Sabres (in fact a bonded version of the Golden Sabre is now used) for use in their SA .45s? Do they use suppressed arms? Maybe their application is far different from CCW users and more like the military which seeks over-penetration without regard to wounding innocents?

Both cases you mentioned above do NOT make a good case for choosing 230 gr 45 ACP for CCW.

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
From a thread over at pistolsmith.com (http://www.pistolsmith.com/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic=1636&forum=24&start=0). It is a very good thread with some good pictures of expanded rounds. It might be a bit of an eye opener. If you are truly interested in this topic, I recommend you pop over to pistolsmith.com and take a look. The quotes are from three different posters. The entire thread ran three pages. As a whole, the posters appeared to far more knowledgable than George and their opinions certainly more credible than his.
IT is also interesting to not from a large amount of data that I have recieved on the .45acp FMJ round how infrequently the round actually exits the body, and in some cases it actually umderpenetrated.
Click to expand...
NOTE: They're talking about bodies not gelatin.
Yes, I have been looking for info on this... I too suspect that ball does not go through as often as people surmise... which also leads me to believe that 12" penetration in gelatin is bare minimum and I would like to have about 18" or better if I could get that and expansion.
Click to expand...
NOTE: Bodies again versus gelatin.
One of the things which Mr DiFabio posted mentioned that the off-side layer of skin required approx. the same force to pentrate as 4" of muscle tissue. I would think that much of what one would expect of over penetration from gelatin figures would be stopped by this affect. Also, if the bullet has expanded or deformed, it will be so much the larger and flatter, decreasing the likelihood of penetrating through the (far) skin with enough force to be overly dangerous.

My personal opinion is that under penetration is the more serious risk both to oneself and bystanders.
Click to expand...
Again, bodies.
 
juliet charley,

Thanks for the pointer to the pics. Sorry to take so long to respond. I have been traveling too much lately and lost track of this thread.

The data presented at pistolsmith is not conclusive but some trends are present.
- I am surprised at the expansion of 230 gr bullets. Was the gelatin calibrated to give the same results as the FBI tests?
- With massive 230 gr bullet expansion, I do not understand how it could penetrate so far!
- The best expanding 230 gr ammo had excess penetration
- Some famous 230 gr ammo did not expand and would penetrate 3 people!
- The most powerful ammo (185 gr) was least likely to over-penetrate. (READ: MOST EFFECTIVE AT STOPPING!)

I was convinced long ago that proponents of low power, subsonic, 230 gr ammo will continue to carry this poor stopper which is likely to over-penetrate and wound innocents
regardless of the facts.

The reason I am writing this message at 1 AM is to warn educated people to investigate the facts and select ammo which is more effective on the target and less likely to be a danger to innocents on the other side of the target.

In summary, if you pack 45 ACP, a full power 185gr JHP is more powerful than 230 gr, as well as a far better stopper and far less likely to over-penetrate.

Good luck!

Regards,
George
In sunny Arizona
 
SPACE TO EARTH

My brain is on display at a monkey museum, I don't have all my (or anyone else's) teeth, I can't read, and I've been told I'm a techo-Luddite.

BUT......

Why does the finest shooting team (not Olympic, IPSC, H&K, Glock, or Daisy) use the 230g Golden Saber bullet in their "kill people" guns?

Fact, not arguable.

My favorite 45 ACP load consists of the same 230g Golden Saber, with the rest of the recipe concocted by me, exiting my 5" BarSto'ed 1911 at 780fps (also my most popular 45 round, and the one I carry in my personal trust-my-life-to-it Caspian).
Absolute tack-driver to boot. Confusing.

Questions / comments / discussion / disparaging and/or moronic remarks invited.
 
baloney, anyone who really HAS shot many

animals knows that even the 185 gr, with its 300 more fps often fails to expand very much, unless it is the Hydroshok version, and I dont know that such is available in the hi v version. Placement of 230 gr in the HEART often lets the animal run for 50m or more. Besides, men arent pigs or deer. Men USUALLY collapse at a mere slap of the testicles, animals do nothing of the kind. You will NOT experience lack of adequate penetration with the 185, just like you will NOT be impressed with the performance of 230 gr on animals.
 
since hitting chest is RARE beyond 10m

either the need to do so, or the ability to do so, when actually under fire, ANY ammo is plenty accurate enough for defense, unless the slugs actually keyhole in flight. 230 gr ball and swc's EXIT animals that are shot lenghwise, more than 18" of penetration. Anyone who claims that they dont exit men is either ignorant, lying, or talking about slugs that hit something ELSE before they hit the man.
 
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