45-70

My favorite is the discontinued Remington 405gr JSP @1800fps

never used that bullet (other than some factory ammo) but if you say its good for 1800fps, I'll take your word for it.

What I can tell you from personal experience is that the Speer 405gr is NOT the bullet you want to use if you're pushing 1800fps (or more).

Its a great bullet for standard loads (blackpowder speeds and a touch above) but 1800+fps is just too fast and the bullet isn't made for that. At those speeds they come apart easily, and at 2100fps (.458win) they act like varmint bullets, literally "exploding". Very impressive on a water jug, not so good for game animal shooting.

At 1800+fps shooting the .350gr Hornady RN is a good jacketed bullet. Also, any hard cast slug will do fine at any speed.
 
never used that bullet (other than some factory ammo) but if you say its good for 1800fps, I'll take your word for it.

What I can tell you from personal experience is that the Speer 405gr is NOT the bullet you want to use if you're pushing 1800fps (or more).

Its a great bullet for standard loads (blackpowder speeds and a touch above) but 1800+fps is just too fast and the bullet isn't made for that. At those speeds they come apart easily, and at 2100fps (.458win) they act like varmint bullets, literally "exploding". Very impressive on a water jug, not so good for game animal shooting.

At 1800+fps shooting the .350gr Hornady RN is a good jacketed bullet. Also, any hard cast slug will do fine at any speed.
Did you ever shoot any game with the 405speer at 2100? Excluding dangerous game, I bet the exploding 405 would inflict massive damage and clean kills on Elk, Deer, etc.
 
Did you ever shoot any game with the 405speer at 2100? Excluding dangerous game, I bet the exploding 405 would inflict massive damage and clean kills on Elk, Deer, etc.

No, I never shot game with the Speer 405gr @ 2100fps, just some things. Massive wounds, yes, I would expect that. Clean kills? Perhaps not so much.

Hit in just the right spot, probably. His somewhere else, where the bullet would need some penetration while holding together,? perhaps not.

I know of a case where a deer was hit by the Speer 405gr @1800fps. The bullet worked, and failed.

Deer was hit in the spine, and dropped, DRT. However, only the back half of the jacket was in the deer. The core had gone on, never recovered. The game was cleanly killed, but the total core separation is considered a failure, and had the bullet hit somewhere else, its tough to say if the performance would have been adequate. Up the speed to 2100fps and acceptable results become even more unlikely.

Every jacketed expanding bullet operates within a range of velocity, and the upper and lower limits are defined by its design and construction. Drive a bullet several hundred feet per second faster than what it is built for, and you no longer have a controlled expansion bullet.

Depending on details and especially the velocity, you could have a violently expanding bullet that opens up under light resistance, OR you could have a hyper violently expanding bullet that literally "explodes" when it hits ANY resistance. This kind of performance may turn a heart/lungs into soup with a broadside shot, but can also blow a plate sized chunk of meat from the shoulder and go no deeper.

Drive expanding bullets too fast and their performance gets...erratic. Sometimes this will still work in your favor, Sometimes, it won't.
 
The game was cleanly killed, but the total core separation is considered a failure, and had the bullet hit somewhere else, its tough to say if the performance would have been adequate. .
I've learned over the years not to argue with dead animals.

Hunters have been conditioned by slick advertising to think they must have pretty mushrooms and exit holes. And like believing in Old West gunslinging which is a Hollywood invention, believing in pretty mushrooms is just a fantasy.

If I start with a 400'ish grain chunk of lead, run it whatever crazy speed you can achieve, and slam it into a deer - I seriously doubt the deer is going to survive.

One of the nice things about the 45-70 is that you don't need a fancy bullet.
 
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yeah, and it does not need to expand Is already bigger than most of the bullets after they expand. They been killing large and I mean large game with it for over 130 years,
and if it worked then, the game has not gotten harder to kill than it was then.
 
I've been experimenting with some pretty warm loads out of my henry 45-70 recently using VV N120 and N130. Unfortunately I didn't chrono them, but judging by the rather small bullet drop between 100 and 200 yards for a 100 yard zero I figure the 300 gr lehigh defense solids must be moving along quite fast. Being a solid brass/copper mix bullet crimped I account for a healthy start pressure in quickload (6500 psi min) and keep anticipated pressures in the 35,000 psi +/- range. The felt recoil is noticeably harder than factory ammo I've used but no pressure signs on cartridges or any difficulties extracting. I've never been able to come up with meaningful evidence of how well the penatator would work in a hunting scenario--what little I found I suspect is mostly speculation but it ranges from "the animal stood there and kept grazing after being hit" to "DRT, penetration was deep and tissue damage was extensive, exit hole much bigger than comparable expanding bullet design." Even though lightweight (for 45-70) at 300 grs--it's still a big bullet which flies very well.
 
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