45/70
- Thread starter Webleymkv
- Start date
Ok guys lets not take this out of context.
I have shot buffalo with a .458Lott and a .470NE I've seen them killed with a .500 Jeff and a .375.
I NEVER said the .45-70 wasn't "enough" for buffalo.
Here is my own quote from above.
What I said was the .45-70 CAN NOT push a bullet of similar weight anywhere near what a .458Win mag can. THAT is the cold hard truth period end of story.
And yes I do consider the .375H&H adequate for buffalo hunting. It is not however and neither is the .45-70 to be considered a good stopping rifle.
A few examples of what I'm talking about.
A maxed out high pressure Ruger #1 load in a .45-70 starts a 400gr bullet with a S.D. of 272 at just about 1900FPS
The .458 Win mag starts that same 400 gr bullet at just under 2400FPS for a difference of 500FPS
And the .458 Win will start a 500 gr bullet S.D. of .306 at just over 2200FPS still 300 FPS faster than a .45-70's 400 grain load.
And those are maxed out Ruger #1 loads they are somewhat less in a short barreled 1895.
So lets break it down
.45-70 400gr bullet @ 1906FPS S.D. 272/FtLbs =3210
.375H&H 300GR Bullet @ 2550FPS S.D. 305/FtLbs energy =4250
.458 Win 500Gr Bullet @ 2208FPS S.D. .308/ FtLbs energy=5373
The .45-70 with hard cast bullets does have impressive penetration from what I've read. What it doesn't have is the bone crushing smash of a 5000Ft lb + heavy rifle round.
Having been in thick jesse amongst a herd of agitated elephants and having been in the thick stuff with a pissed off wounded buffalo bull I've developed some opinions based on personal experience about what rifle I like to carry during a DG hunt.
there is a HUGE noticable difference in reaction when a buff taskes a hit from a .375 VS a true heavy such as a .458Lott or a 470NE or a .500Jeff. these big rounds actually stun a buff with all that smash. A .375 generally is much less dramatic.
It all really boils down to what you want from your rifle, what you shoot best and personal experience. If you want to shoot a .45-70 on DG I'm not going to try and stop you. I just don't feel warm and fuzzy with that round as a life saver.
In my opinon the .375H&H is a better choice for buffalo hunting than a .45-70
The .45-70 is to the .458Win as the .30-30 is to the .30-06. Both are capable of taking the same types of game. One just gives you more than the other.
Well, I was really intending my comment to be more humorous than argumentative...
But I'll respond anyway. Garrett sells a 540gr .45/70 load and there are at least a couple of suppliers loading 500gr 45/70 ammo. I didn't look very hard, but out of the 4 or so ammo makers I checked, I didn't find any .458 Win Mag factory loadings with bullets heavier than 510gr.
So that means that the .45/70 can match the .458 in diameter, bullet weight and sectional density. That leaves only velocity as the primary difference.
Which means if you're going to decry the .45/70 and praise the .458 you need to change your signature (or at least add a caveat.)
I know, I know, we're talking about 400fps or so of velocity difference, but you have to admit, the discussion IS a bit ironic in view of your signature line.
Hey, BTW, didn't you post a review of various dangerous game stopping rifles sometime back? I was looking for it the other day and couldn't find it. IIRC, you went through the list including the CZ rifles and mentioned the common faults you had seen in them over the years. I can't remember your ding on the CZ big-bores... I would greatly appreciate it if you could point me to the thread, or just repeat your comment about the CZ rifles. Thanks!
John
H&H,
I understand what your saying apples to apples.
But sometimes things arnt always the same. Look at the debates about the 270 and the 30-06 they normally go to the "highest" senable weight and then compare there. So there is quite a big of weight difference. Why they do that I dont know but they do.
Anyways not trying to start a argument. Personally the 45-70 isnt a bullet I ever used and probrobly will never use. I am gonna stick to the 30-06 as it can deal with anything on this side of the world. If it was really Dangours game then I will go out and get myself a 375 Remington Ultra Mag
That has enough energy to take pretty much anything doesnt it ?? Its been a while since I have seen any data but I think it has like 5,000 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle with Remington Factory loads 
Dimitri
I understand what your saying apples to apples.
But sometimes things arnt always the same. Look at the debates about the 270 and the 30-06 they normally go to the "highest" senable weight and then compare there. So there is quite a big of weight difference. Why they do that I dont know but they do.
Anyways not trying to start a argument. Personally the 45-70 isnt a bullet I ever used and probrobly will never use. I am gonna stick to the 30-06 as it can deal with anything on this side of the world. If it was really Dangours game then I will go out and get myself a 375 Remington Ultra Mag
That has enough energy to take pretty much anything doesnt it ?? Its been a while since I have seen any data but I think it has like 5,000 ft-lbs of energy at the muzzle with Remington Factory loads Dimitri
John,
That was probably on THR where I posted that thing on CZ'z and Rugers and such.
The problem with the really heavy 500+ grain bullets in the .45-70 is velocity. they are punching those rounds out at like 1600FPS. Pretty much back to old BPE rounds.
The old adage of 500gr at 2150 and up still stands true in my opinion.
Two things I don't like about the CZ's functionability.
All of the heavy caliber CZ's I've seen start to crack out around the mag box and in through the receiver on the pistol grip with time. They need to be bedded and cross bolted.
And I Hate the new safety they've put on these rifles rifles they have taken the sear block, backwards safety off, and put on a trigger block safety that is known to slide to the on position during recoil. Effectively stopping the rifle and possibly ending your short sweet life in a bad situation.
They are still a good buy for the money and can be made functional with very little time and money.
That was probably on THR where I posted that thing on CZ'z and Rugers and such.
The problem with the really heavy 500+ grain bullets in the .45-70 is velocity. they are punching those rounds out at like 1600FPS. Pretty much back to old BPE rounds.
The old adage of 500gr at 2150 and up still stands true in my opinion.
Two things I don't like about the CZ's functionability.
All of the heavy caliber CZ's I've seen start to crack out around the mag box and in through the receiver on the pistol grip with time. They need to be bedded and cross bolted.
And I Hate the new safety they've put on these rifles rifles they have taken the sear block, backwards safety off, and put on a trigger block safety that is known to slide to the on position during recoil. Effectively stopping the rifle and possibly ending your short sweet life in a bad situation.
They are still a good buy for the money and can be made functional with very little time and money.
John,
Actually there is. Somebody makes a M-70 style bolt shroud and safety that with minor gunsmithing can be put on your CZ. I've seen them in Brownells I think?
In anycase I seem to remember it was about a $300 dollar deal to do it. I could be way wrong but that is what central data processing is coming up with right now.
Are they really that pokey?
You had a maxed-out 405gr load from a Ruger #1 listed at 1900fps. I'm running Beartooth 405gr hard-cast gas check bullets out of my own Ruger #1S at an honest-to-gawd 2150fps, using Reloder #7, no excess pressure signs. So that 400+ fps difference between the .458 Win Mag and .45-70 is right out the door in my own book. It was my intended American Bison and Cape Buffalo load, until I discovered a really streamlined gas-checked 500gr spitzer, which I'm working with now in the same rifle.
Rich didn't seem to have any troubles using modern .45-70 loads in his Cape Buffalo hunt. With the aforementioned zinger Beartooth loads I have, or even the newer 500gr spitzer loads, why shouldn't I be assured of a successful hunt with my Ruger #1S or Siamese Mauser, or is there a bottom "floor" which one doesn't attempt in dangerous game shoots. We're not talking about Grandpa's blackpowder Trapdoor loads, here.
You had a maxed-out 405gr load from a Ruger #1 listed at 1900fps. I'm running Beartooth 405gr hard-cast gas check bullets out of my own Ruger #1S at an honest-to-gawd 2150fps, using Reloder #7, no excess pressure signs. So that 400+ fps difference between the .458 Win Mag and .45-70 is right out the door in my own book. It was my intended American Bison and Cape Buffalo load, until I discovered a really streamlined gas-checked 500gr spitzer, which I'm working with now in the same rifle.
Rich didn't seem to have any troubles using modern .45-70 loads in his Cape Buffalo hunt. With the aforementioned zinger Beartooth loads I have, or even the newer 500gr spitzer loads, why shouldn't I be assured of a successful hunt with my Ruger #1S or Siamese Mauser, or is there a bottom "floor" which one doesn't attempt in dangerous game shoots. We're not talking about Grandpa's blackpowder Trapdoor loads, here.
Gewehr98,
You guys are both right.
H&H is right about the velocity difference. The .458Win Mag runs a 500grain bullet at 2150fps. I've never seen any load for a 45/70 that comes close to that velocity with a 500 grain bullet.
500 grain loadings for 45/70 lever guns top out a little under 1650fps. Even out of a Ruger #1, I can't see getting to 2000fps with that bullet weight, let alone over 2100fps.
But you're right, 1900fps for a 405gr bullet is not max in a Ruger #1. You can buy factory ammo for leverguns that will drive a 405gr bullet up to 2000fps or a 430grain bullet at over 1900fps.
You guys are both right.
H&H is right about the velocity difference. The .458Win Mag runs a 500grain bullet at 2150fps. I've never seen any load for a 45/70 that comes close to that velocity with a 500 grain bullet.
500 grain loadings for 45/70 lever guns top out a little under 1650fps. Even out of a Ruger #1, I can't see getting to 2000fps with that bullet weight, let alone over 2100fps.
But you're right, 1900fps for a 405gr bullet is not max in a Ruger #1. You can buy factory ammo for leverguns that will drive a 405gr bullet up to 2000fps or a 430grain bullet at over 1900fps.
Ok, so is a 405 or 430gr bullet moving at 2000fps taboo for dangerous game?
There's still a metric buttload of energy there, 3598 foot pounds at a conservative 2000fps, even though it's not an almighty 500gr bullet. Or are there rules enforced by game wardens on the African Continent that say nothing less than 500gr in .45 caliber at XXXX fps for Cape Buffalo?
There's still a metric buttload of energy there, 3598 foot pounds at a conservative 2000fps, even though it's not an almighty 500gr bullet. Or are there rules enforced by game wardens on the African Continent that say nothing less than 500gr in .45 caliber at XXXX fps for Cape Buffalo?
Then Why?
I understand that Cape Buffalo are tougher and more dangeroues then American Bison. Still, they killed bison by the millions with bullets traveling below 1500 feet per second. In fact, early African hunters used guns with similar velocities, only with larger bullets. Velocity was limited until the invention of smokeless powder.
There was also the occasional ivory hunter that used small caliber rifles. I believe one was named Bell. He used cartridges that some folks deem as inadequete for whitetail deer.
I understand that Cape Buffalo are tougher and more dangeroues then American Bison. Still, they killed bison by the millions with bullets traveling below 1500 feet per second. In fact, early African hunters used guns with similar velocities, only with larger bullets. Velocity was limited until the invention of smokeless powder.
There was also the occasional ivory hunter that used small caliber rifles. I believe one was named Bell. He used cartridges that some folks deem as inadequete for whitetail deer.
Gewehr98,
You are completely correct Rich didn't have any trouble. If, god forbid, he would have had any serious troubles we can only hope that his weapon choice would have been up to the job.
But here is the real deal you don't need my validation or even my acceptance of your weapon choice. If you want to hunt Cape Buffalo with a sharp stick and a rock go for it.
I have my reasons why I don't like the .45-70 for thick skined dangerous game. And I'll tell you one thing for sure, last year If I'd have been using a single shot falling block rifle in the Zambezi valley I most probably wouldn't be writing this post. I was involved in a very close range very determined buffalo charge that was stopped by my second barrel with my double.
The PH's gun was dry. It is a MAJOR fallacy to think that "I can use whatever rifle I want because the PH is there to back me up."
Most big game countries in Africa have either a minimum caliber restriction and or a minimum energy restriction in regards to hunting thick skinned dangerous game. The caliber restriction is usually 9.5MM (.375) and the energy minimumis usually about 4000Ftlbs.
To compare a bison to a cape buffalo is not really valid due to major differences in bone structure and attitude.
It's all about prefrences and and opinons and past experiences and judgement. It has my observation that the VAST majority of guys who push the .45-70 as DG rifle have never hunted DG.
This is old boy who nearly got famous last summer.
formerflyer
New member
Some of you seem to be missing the point. The question is not whether you can kill a cape buffalo with a .45-70. The answer is yes. Lots of them are killed with .308’s and .303’s every year. (Some of them, however, don’t take kindly to that treatment. Poachers shot up a buff in Dande North, Zimbabwe while we were there last year and didn’t finish up the job. It killed a local farmer a day later, leaving the PH to fix the problem with his .470).
The problem is that when hunting dangerous game, you are constantly in close contact with Dangerous Game. Yes, you have a PH along with you to assist in case of emergency, but you should never count on someone else to rescue you in case of relatively foreseeable circumstances. Some would call depending on the PH “standard practice”, some would call it a bad idea, I call it dumping chlorine into the gene pool.
You will know you are hunting in a truly dangerous game area when your PH insists that you carry enough ammo to back him up if things get nasty. Outside of a high-fenced game farm in South Africa, I don’t know of, and have never heard of, a single DG PH that carries a .45-70. I choose to believe they have looked at the situation and made a rational decision about capabilities. Perhaps they don’t feel that it will reliably stop a big, pissed off buff at full charge. Perhaps they don’t feel that you can safely stop a charging group of Ele in cover so tight that 5-7 yard shots are not uncommon.
In my case, I’ll trust their judgment. I’ll continue to carry a rifle that has ALL of the necessary elements: Adequate sectional density, adequate caliber, tough bullets, enough velocity and energy to get the job done.
The problem is that when hunting dangerous game, you are constantly in close contact with Dangerous Game. Yes, you have a PH along with you to assist in case of emergency, but you should never count on someone else to rescue you in case of relatively foreseeable circumstances. Some would call depending on the PH “standard practice”, some would call it a bad idea, I call it dumping chlorine into the gene pool.
You will know you are hunting in a truly dangerous game area when your PH insists that you carry enough ammo to back him up if things get nasty. Outside of a high-fenced game farm in South Africa, I don’t know of, and have never heard of, a single DG PH that carries a .45-70. I choose to believe they have looked at the situation and made a rational decision about capabilities. Perhaps they don’t feel that it will reliably stop a big, pissed off buff at full charge. Perhaps they don’t feel that you can safely stop a charging group of Ele in cover so tight that 5-7 yard shots are not uncommon.
In my case, I’ll trust their judgment. I’ll continue to carry a rifle that has ALL of the necessary elements: Adequate sectional density, adequate caliber, tough bullets, enough velocity and energy to get the job done.
Gewehr98,
Yep I guess that is the short version..
There are many DG capable rifles available in DG capable chamberings for about the same money as a super cool .45-70 like a Ruger #1.
I don't want you guys to get the wrong impression. I like the .45-70 I own a super cool "Ashlerized" 1895CB. And I love to hunt with it.
I just don't want to hunt thick skinned DG with it. I've got better tools in the shed for that purpose.
P.S.
I tend to throw around terms like "Thick Skined" dangerous game and "Heavy rifle". I've been asked several times what qualifies as thick skined. And what makes a rifle "Heavy."
The critters that qualify as thick skinned DG are,
Elephant, rhino, hippo, and buffalo..I think I got them all? If I didn't I'm sure I'll hear about it very soon.
A heavy rifle is generaly one which is .458 or larger in bore and can push a 500gr bullet or heavier at a velocity which produces 5000 FtLbs or better.
The .45-70 does not produce as much energy with ANY loading to match the minimum DG legal rifle in most countries, the venerable old .375H&H.
Yep I guess that is the short version..
There are many DG capable rifles available in DG capable chamberings for about the same money as a super cool .45-70 like a Ruger #1.
I don't want you guys to get the wrong impression. I like the .45-70 I own a super cool "Ashlerized" 1895CB. And I love to hunt with it.
I just don't want to hunt thick skinned DG with it. I've got better tools in the shed for that purpose.
P.S.
I tend to throw around terms like "Thick Skined" dangerous game and "Heavy rifle". I've been asked several times what qualifies as thick skined. And what makes a rifle "Heavy."
The critters that qualify as thick skinned DG are,
Elephant, rhino, hippo, and buffalo..I think I got them all? If I didn't I'm sure I'll hear about it very soon.
A heavy rifle is generaly one which is .458 or larger in bore and can push a 500gr bullet or heavier at a velocity which produces 5000 FtLbs or better.
The .45-70 does not produce as much energy with ANY loading to match the minimum DG legal rifle in most countries, the venerable old .375H&H.
Harley Quinn
Moderator
375 H&H is a minimum in size in most of the African
Countries for thick skinned I believe. I thought I read somewhere that the 40 cal was the qualification, with so much fpof energy, but they allowed the 375 and 9.3 because they are great rounds and have done a lot of proving of it???That is off the top of me head.
It does explain why the 45-70 is so pleasent to shoot though not much velocity etc. take a 1-1/8 ounce slug out of a slug gun and you are probably talking more kick back???
The 45-70 in a lever has a few advantages, it is quick to repeat your shot. For the average guy I think that would be very high on the scale. So if 3 or 4 is necessary you will be able to have them fast.
I have heard of PH's being able to fire 4 shots very fast, they are really handy with those doubles.
They talk about the 375 being twice the kick as a 30-06, you need to fire it in an offhand position or kneeling, not prone. I have never fired the 375 and probably never will. I have a 458 Win Mag. but it weighs in at 19 pounds.
I believe most of the hard lead cast's are followed by a gascheck or two. It keep's the leading to a dull roar. The reason they changed the rifling in the Marlin was so they could shoot the lead, without to much fouling. I remember this as being the standard 20 years ago, in handgun shooting.
Dangerous game in the bush is one thing, dangerous game from a far is another. But both need the big and heavy hitters for the same reason.
One is close and needs to go down fast and the other is further away and your large bullet is losing steam and needs to be hot out of the bore to carry the distance and still deliver the goods. One takes one type of bullet and the other is usually slightly different or ??? Must be one type of bullet that is pretty popular in Africa for big game???
From what I have read when the buff are grazing and kicking back they are pretty easy to slaughter, one of the reasons they were so easily slaughtered.
If you are familiar with bullet designs or just listen to the maker I am not sure, So much information and misinformation and opinions and mis-opinions. I would think that 458 Lott of H&H's is a real good choice. Using enough gun is smart and proper in todays world.
Again, it is placement and good shooting that is the first consideration.
Guess you would go with what your PH says and try to appease them, or you will be without one I would say.
Harley
Countries for thick skinned I believe. I thought I read somewhere that the 40 cal was the qualification, with so much fpof energy, but they allowed the 375 and 9.3 because they are great rounds and have done a lot of proving of it???That is off the top of me head.
It does explain why the 45-70 is so pleasent to shoot though not much velocity etc. take a 1-1/8 ounce slug out of a slug gun and you are probably talking more kick back???
The 45-70 in a lever has a few advantages, it is quick to repeat your shot. For the average guy I think that would be very high on the scale. So if 3 or 4 is necessary you will be able to have them fast.
I have heard of PH's being able to fire 4 shots very fast, they are really handy with those doubles.
They talk about the 375 being twice the kick as a 30-06, you need to fire it in an offhand position or kneeling, not prone. I have never fired the 375 and probably never will. I have a 458 Win Mag. but it weighs in at 19 pounds.
I believe most of the hard lead cast's are followed by a gascheck or two. It keep's the leading to a dull roar. The reason they changed the rifling in the Marlin was so they could shoot the lead, without to much fouling. I remember this as being the standard 20 years ago, in handgun shooting.
Dangerous game in the bush is one thing, dangerous game from a far is another. But both need the big and heavy hitters for the same reason.
One is close and needs to go down fast and the other is further away and your large bullet is losing steam and needs to be hot out of the bore to carry the distance and still deliver the goods. One takes one type of bullet and the other is usually slightly different or ??? Must be one type of bullet that is pretty popular in Africa for big game???
From what I have read when the buff are grazing and kicking back they are pretty easy to slaughter, one of the reasons they were so easily slaughtered.
If you are familiar with bullet designs or just listen to the maker I am not sure, So much information and misinformation and opinions and mis-opinions. I would think that 458 Lott of H&H's is a real good choice. Using enough gun is smart and proper in todays world.
Again, it is placement and good shooting that is the first consideration.
Guess you would go with what your PH says and try to appease them, or you will be without one I would say.
Harley