wachtelhund1
New member
My Marlin has microgroove rifling. My bullet mold is custom made to cast bullets to .432 and my sizer is also .432.
45/70 vs .444
- Thread starter Willie Lowman
- Start date
"I believe Marlin moved away from the microgroove rifling for their centerfire leverguns some years ago.
It seemed, based on the discussion, that the old microgroove rifling worked fine with cast bullets as long as the bullets were sized exactly right for the bore. So a careful handloader could use cast bullets with the microgroove and get good results. Someone who wanted to buy/shoot cast bullet ammo from a commercial source, or who didn't want to slug their bore and size bullets was better served with Ballard rifling."
A lot of truth there. One day at the range I was running .310" cast bullets in a Marlin 336 and getting 1.5" to 2.)" groups. A fellow next to me had just gotten into cast bullets and was also shooting a Marlin 336. Groups were almost nonexistent. Roughly 8" patterns was more like it.
We talked for a bit and he asked me what was ai doing to get those groups compared to what he was doing. First thing I suggested was let's clean the barrel. It was badly leaded. I carry spare brushes and a Chore Boy pad in my kit when I shoot cast. Usually no trouble with leading but sometimes stuff happens. I asked what size bullet was he using and he said .308" as recommended by a friend. I told him mine were sized at .310". He was using a flat nosed bullet that looked like the Lyman #31141 or #311941 as they now call it. I was shooting a Lyman #311291. Both bullets are in the 170 gr. range. I let him shoot a group with my loads and he got a nice 2.5" groups and the widest grin I've seen in a long time. I told him that I have the same mold as what he was using and had never gotten any kind of groups worth spit. I also told him that I seat ,y bullets so they are slightly engraved by the rifling. Dunno how it all worked out for him and I never lucked out into seeing him again. Too bad. Seemed like a nice guy.
Paul B.
It seemed, based on the discussion, that the old microgroove rifling worked fine with cast bullets as long as the bullets were sized exactly right for the bore. So a careful handloader could use cast bullets with the microgroove and get good results. Someone who wanted to buy/shoot cast bullet ammo from a commercial source, or who didn't want to slug their bore and size bullets was better served with Ballard rifling."
A lot of truth there. One day at the range I was running .310" cast bullets in a Marlin 336 and getting 1.5" to 2.)" groups. A fellow next to me had just gotten into cast bullets and was also shooting a Marlin 336. Groups were almost nonexistent. Roughly 8" patterns was more like it.
We talked for a bit and he asked me what was ai doing to get those groups compared to what he was doing. First thing I suggested was let's clean the barrel. It was badly leaded. I carry spare brushes and a Chore Boy pad in my kit when I shoot cast. Usually no trouble with leading but sometimes stuff happens. I asked what size bullet was he using and he said .308" as recommended by a friend. I told him mine were sized at .310". He was using a flat nosed bullet that looked like the Lyman #31141 or #311941 as they now call it. I was shooting a Lyman #311291. Both bullets are in the 170 gr. range. I let him shoot a group with my loads and he got a nice 2.5" groups and the widest grin I've seen in a long time. I told him that I have the same mold as what he was using and had never gotten any kind of groups worth spit. I also told him that I seat ,y bullets so they are slightly engraved by the rifling. Dunno how it all worked out for him and I never lucked out into seeing him again. Too bad. Seemed like a nice guy.
Paul B.
Disclaimer, I'm not a fan of either.
But I had various 45-70's over the years and can't think of a single reason to choose 444 over it. Marlin introduced the 444 in 1964 and initially it did poorly. As said above bullets designed for 44 mag were not working at 444 speeds.
The 45-70 cartridge had been dormant and all but unused since the 1890's, but Marlin introduced a modern version of the 1895 in 1972 chambered for 45-70 with plans of dropping the 444.
But bullet and ammo makers did eventually get around to producing better 44 caliber bullets and the 444 refuses to completely die.
The 444 tops out with bullets around 300 gr; the traditional load for a 45-70 is 405 gr and you can go up to 500 gr. With lighter bullets 45-70 does the same thing and 45-70 and is much more common, especially if you handload. If you're handloading 444 you still have to stay away from bullets meant for 44 mag.
Traditional 45-70 loads are adequate for deer and black bear but are underpowered for larger game. 45-70 was never a commonly used round for bison. It wasn't potent enough to kill them reliably for one thing, and most of the bison were dead before it was introduced. I'm sure it killed a few, but the old-time buffalo hunters used bigger, more powerful cartridges. Recoil with these loads is very tolerable. Comparable to 30-06.
With modern loads and bullets the 45-70 is a legitimate cartridge for larger game such as elk, moose, and bigger bear. There is a wide range of loads, with accompanying recoil. The hotter loads recoil is brutal. In a nutshell 45-70 does everything a 444 does, plus a lot more.
I'm not sure where the TC falls as to what 45-70 loads it will take. If you look at load manuals, they show 3 different levels. Older guns and reproductions are limited to old black powder levels. The Marlin lever guns are suitable for the mid-range loads. Bolt guns, and maybe the TC, will take the hottest loads. But even those loads are considerably less powerful than 458 WM. Fired from a lever action 45-70 is nowhere near 458 power levels.
But I had various 45-70's over the years and can't think of a single reason to choose 444 over it. Marlin introduced the 444 in 1964 and initially it did poorly. As said above bullets designed for 44 mag were not working at 444 speeds.
The 45-70 cartridge had been dormant and all but unused since the 1890's, but Marlin introduced a modern version of the 1895 in 1972 chambered for 45-70 with plans of dropping the 444.
But bullet and ammo makers did eventually get around to producing better 44 caliber bullets and the 444 refuses to completely die.
The 444 tops out with bullets around 300 gr; the traditional load for a 45-70 is 405 gr and you can go up to 500 gr. With lighter bullets 45-70 does the same thing and 45-70 and is much more common, especially if you handload. If you're handloading 444 you still have to stay away from bullets meant for 44 mag.
Traditional 45-70 loads are adequate for deer and black bear but are underpowered for larger game. 45-70 was never a commonly used round for bison. It wasn't potent enough to kill them reliably for one thing, and most of the bison were dead before it was introduced. I'm sure it killed a few, but the old-time buffalo hunters used bigger, more powerful cartridges. Recoil with these loads is very tolerable. Comparable to 30-06.
With modern loads and bullets the 45-70 is a legitimate cartridge for larger game such as elk, moose, and bigger bear. There is a wide range of loads, with accompanying recoil. The hotter loads recoil is brutal. In a nutshell 45-70 does everything a 444 does, plus a lot more.
I'm not sure where the TC falls as to what 45-70 loads it will take. If you look at load manuals, they show 3 different levels. Older guns and reproductions are limited to old black powder levels. The Marlin lever guns are suitable for the mid-range loads. Bolt guns, and maybe the TC, will take the hottest loads. But even those loads are considerably less powerful than 458 WM. Fired from a lever action 45-70 is nowhere near 458 power levels.
I built a M98 in 444 a few years back, and I can actually say I prefer the 444 to the 45-70. Flatter trajectories and higher energy are the main reasons, but making rimmed cartridges feed out of a box mag versus a semi-rimmed cartridge is a big deal. Can you reach 2,300 fps with a 45-70 with 405 grain bullets? Probably, but who wants to? Everybody spouts the same bs about being able to reach 80% of 458 Win Mag energy with a hot 45-70, but nobody wants to try. This is the same reason target shooters in the late 1800s switched from 45 caliber to 40 caliber cartridges, recoil with the heavy 45 cal bullets is terrible.
So I load my 265 gr Hornadys to 2,400 fps and the 300 gr Cutting Edge bullets to 2,100 fps, and that kicks plenty hard enough for me. I look at it as a poor man's 425 Westley Richards or 404 Jefferies, with that big of a hole you don't need a lot more energy. This is like the discussion of 308 Win vs 30-06, it's too close to call for most people and all their arguments are based on "I think", which doesn't hold water.
Ammo availability? In the age of COVID? Make me laugh! It's hard enough finding 22-250. let alone 444! But I did score a Remington bulk pack of 250 444 Marlin 240 grainers a couple years back. Since I'm unlikely to take on a Cape Buffalo or a rhino, those will work just fine on deer and pigs and the occasional ground squirrel, and I reload so I can make my own witch doctor home brews if I need to.
So I load my 265 gr Hornadys to 2,400 fps and the 300 gr Cutting Edge bullets to 2,100 fps, and that kicks plenty hard enough for me. I look at it as a poor man's 425 Westley Richards or 404 Jefferies, with that big of a hole you don't need a lot more energy. This is like the discussion of 308 Win vs 30-06, it's too close to call for most people and all their arguments are based on "I think", which doesn't hold water.
Ammo availability? In the age of COVID? Make me laugh! It's hard enough finding 22-250. let alone 444! But I did score a Remington bulk pack of 250 444 Marlin 240 grainers a couple years back. Since I'm unlikely to take on a Cape Buffalo or a rhino, those will work just fine on deer and pigs and the occasional ground squirrel, and I reload so I can make my own witch doctor home brews if I need to.
There's a lot of dead "larger game" that would argue with this, if they could. .45-70 has been used for bison and other game since its introduction in 1873. It is ABSOLUTELY potent enough to kill them reliably.
The MARKET hunting slaughter of the bison herds was winding down and essentially ended shortly after the .45-70 was introduced, so few of them made it to the hands of the market hunters, who already had rifles that worked and weren't terribly interested in replacing them at the time...
The ARMY shot buffalo, cattle, horses, people and every thing else they shot with the .45-70 and had NO issues with its "potency" if anything, they REDUCED some of the original loads, over time.
ITs NOT BS, Scorch, some of us have done it. And yes, the recoil is up there, there's no free lunch. Just because we don't regularly shoot the really heavy loads for plinking and recreation doesn't mean its BS. I have a .458Win Mag, too, but I don't shoot 500gr elephant loads from it for fun, either. I COULD, but I choose not to, for both my own comfort, enjoyment, and the savings on my wallet.
The speedometer in my car goes to 140, (probably overly optimistic) I've had it to over 100...the fact that I almost never drive it that fast, that most of my driving is done at 80 or slower doesn't make the fact that it can do 100 BS. Not in the least.
The T/C CONTENDER is stronger than the trap door Springfield, but not quite as strong as the 1886 Win lever gun or the modern Marlin. Top loads for those rifles are just a bit too much for the Contender. I run mine at Trapdoor load levels or just slightly over with no trouble.
I do not know what strength level a T/C ENCORE .45-70 would be grouped in, but I wouldn't put it in the same group as my Ruger No.3.
There's a very good case to be made that over-population/herd disease killed off the bison masses so
popularly ascribed to yesteryear's "gun violence" ...currently-popular in today's "guilt chronicles"
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0190052818300087
Of course, that doesn't fit w/ the Power Point message.
Nor does it fit with other historical accounts.
What it does fit with is that if you use enough sources, co-relate enough things, throw around enough BS numbers and assumptions, you will get someone to believe it. Someone other than I...
It very much reminds me of the "study" that determined that American colonists had very, very few firearms, because they could find almost no mention of them in a study of colonial period wills.
The basic flaw is the assumption that because you don't find a record that the event never happened. The modern equivalent is not believing some thing is real or has happened if you can't find a reference on the Internet...
Before the "information age" there were a LOT of things the didn't get written down. The further back you go, the fewer things were recorded and the fewer of what was recorded has survived.
And no amount of comparing 1870s Bison to 2015 cattle makes ANY degree of sense, to me, other than, like starfish, they are all here, on planet Earth...
That's truly unfortunate.
and of course the "historical" accounts were all accurate as written.... especially with today's guilt-as 1st-response crowd.
Even the very thought of reconsideration given possible new understanding of the role of diseases needs be ridiculed ASAP.
It doesn't fit the PowerPoint.
I ran top loads in #1, #3 and 1895 Marlin-the JM Rifle. They would let you know when you touched one off. Especially the Marlin because I skinned the wood down flush with metal like the originals. Doing this I reduced surface area of butt plate good bit. I was murder off the bench. I’ve had 444s but only shot a few at range. Saw no point in 444 when I had several 45/70s. I would bet you will get no complaint fron deer shot with either. The 45/70 has a lot more bullet choices too.
Willie Lowman
New member
Buffalo Bore lists these guns for use with their 45/70 magnum lever gun ammo
"Its use should be limited to the following firearms:
All Marlin 1895 (1895 Marlins are all model 336 actions, chambered in 45-70) iterations made since 1972, all Browning 1885 and 1886 copies, Rossi Rio Grande, New England Arms Handi Rifle, T/C Encore, ALL falling block actions made of modern steel such as Ruger #1 and #3, Shiloh, Christian and Pedersoli Sharps, Henry Lever Action Rifles, all Winchester 1886 iterations made since 1915, CVA Centerfire Rifles and all Siamese Mauser bolt actions."
So the TC Encore is in that group. The ammo in question that I am looking at is a 300 grain hollow point that they list at 2263 FPS from an 18.5 inch barrel.
That's good enough for me.