45-70 loads for deer

Do you crimp your loads? if not, you don't need the shorter die. Just like .357/38 dies, you can use the shorter .38 for .357 by backing the die out and just setting up expanding and crimping as needed.

Another alternative would be to have a gunsmith grind the face off of the die by about the same amount that the brass differs.
 
Unless the OP is running black powder, crimping is required for consistent
ignition velocities -- even w/ fast/classic-big-case powders like 5744.


(Ask me how I know) :rolleyes:
 
Yes, I believe he did say that he is using BP, and you are right, that smokeless needs far more chamber pressure in the early stages of ignition to function properly. Even a slight inconsistency in the "pull" on the bullet can result in huge variations in ignition properties.

Remember when 296 wasn't available or sale? when it was released with dire warnings not to load with lead, and to use a heavy crimp, and to use only with heavy copper bullets with heavy crimp? There were genuine cases discussed that involved primers igniting only a fraction of the powder, and the powder popping out of the shell without building up enough pressure and heat to complete the ignition and burn cycle.

A big case like a 45-70, straight bore, light bullets, etc, could obviously cause problems for smokeless powder, especially with dense powders that only fill a fraction of the case. Maybe it would only be inconsistent burn and ignition, with resulting inaccuracy, maybe it would result in failure to completely discharge.
 
Definitely not using black powder to reload. Possibly some modern substitutes that burn cleaner and are not as corrosive.

reloading won't happen until after this season if ever.

I understand the problem with bullet length on a basic level. I have run into it with other cartridges. Won't know for sure until I try it though. Not intending to target shot. If I can reduce the trajectory extremes across my 150 yard PBR by more than the size the groups expand it will be a win for my purpose.

Even if I have to use some thumper to get it to shoot I can just use a Reactar recoil pad and shirt when sighting it in or try out different loads. Not the end of the world and firing one or 2 shots while hunting shouldn't be much of an issue.

Going to wait until the Hornady ammo gets here before I take it to the range at this point. Headed there this afternoon, but just taking some 22s and a cantankerous scatter gun back from Mossberg.
 
Order showed up from buds gun shop this morning. Faster than they quoted delivery. Really amazing to me since their delivery was also the cheapest.

The state changed the schedule of the range from Tues-Sat TO Wed-Sun, so I will be able to shoot tomorrow. Always 3-4 state employees there, usual a LEO or two. Such a great place to shoot.
 
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Definitely not using black powder to reload.
Possibly some modern substitutes that burn
cleaner and are not as corrosive.
Click to expand...
First, don't bother with "substitutes" in a cartridge rifle. Go with real Black or stay smokeless.
Second, BP is not "corrosive" per se. Leave it uncleaned, though, and the residue will attract water.
Three, BP is simpler/faster to clean than smokeless. Just wash it out with soapy-water patches like you would a dinner plate and oil it for storage.
 
I've dealt with black powder and substitutes in muzzle loadersfor hunting. I actually hunted with only muzzle loader for about 5 years as i didn't like what I was getting from shotguns. I will almost certainly avoid using either BP or subs in the 45-70 cartridge.
I'm not a clean after every use even if it was only one shot kind of guy. I'm not sure how fouling in a cartridge gun works since you don't have to jam the bullet down the barrel, but it probably won't make things work better.

It takes a "special" type to enjoy black powder:)
 
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For deer my favorite 45-70 load is the Hornady leverevolution. 325 Grain Bullet doing about 1800-2000 fps (depending on barrel length). With nice expansion and good penetration they seem to work very well for me.

The 1 down side is they do destroy more meat than the 405 grain loads.

My second favroit load is a 550 Grain bullet doing about 1000 FPS. Its very quiet and still hits like a truck!
 
Went to the range today and started off at 50 yards. With a new rifle I would normally start at 25 with my sight in, but since this was a preowned barrel that had probably been zeroed before I decided to give it a try at 50 yards first. I set-up the Lead sled solo my wife got me for Christmas last year.
I started with the Hornady 250 grains as they had the least recoil. The lead sled REALLY cut down on the effects of the recoil, although I found it very difficult to use the sights with the lead sled. That may be in a large part because I needed to remove the rifle from the rest to load each time. I got better with the rest, but it was awkward the whole day. At fifty yards I was excited because the 250 grain Hornady were grouping pretty well. I fired a couple of the Winchester and was able to get a reasonable group. I then tried the Remington and could not establish a group at fifty yards. The 350 grain Hornady were the last I tried. The recoil was significantly stronger than the others without any better group, so I put the box away after three shots for that reason.
Before I headed to the 100 yard range I fired a few shots without the lead sled from standing unsupported. The first was a bad flinch in anticipation of the recoil, which was considerably less than anticipated. I would say it is more comfortable shooting the Hornady 250 grain, the Remington, or Winchester, than shooting Remington Nitro Pheasant rounds out of my Moss 500. I fired three more rounds and achieved a group as good as any I shot off the lead sled in a similar location. All the groups were centered around the top of the 6" center circle on the target I was using. Some real flyers and some holes from the Remington. The front sight post took up the entire circle at 50 yards which was something I did not like.

Anyways, onto 100 yards and I'm not on the target Or the backer. With any of the loads. 10"+ above my previous groups, 15"+ below on the backer, and I'm not hitting anywhere. I can see some dust thrown up above my target on one shot, so I aim sub-six and a little on the next shot and it I get a hole at the top of the target. Probably 15"+ above where I was aiming.
That would be about 12" rise over 50 yards.
I should have adjusted the sights down 3" at fifty, but decided I was going to have to adjust at 100 and it wasn't too far off so I didn't. The published trajectory info from Hornady only lists a 4.5" change over the first hundred yards on the 250 grain.

The other possibility: At 100 yards the front fiber optic on the front sight is now larger than the target zone on my target. It then has a band around it which is larger yet. The aperture was pretty large also. It may just be I wasn't shooting on the backer, but that seems extreme considering the goups I was getitng at 50 and I was using a rest, even if it was a bit awkward.

Running out of time I stopped there in hopes of digging up some better trajectory information.

So, as of right now I have a very hard kicking 50 yard deer gun. Back to the range when it opens Wednesday.
 
Even though the Lead Sled was awkward, I fired about 40 rounds today. 35 or so off the sled and 5 or so standing and no soreness or anything at all in my shoulder. It was very effective in that regard.
 
At the 50 yard range I realized my problem almost immediately. The Katahdin comes with Williams drift adjustable sights. I believe they are the WRGS model. The set screw on the elevation adjustment must have vibrated loose during my last range trip without me noticing and the sight was migrating up the ramp to higher and higher elevation. After two shots this session, both way high, I realized it was at the max elevation. I had not made any adjustments last trip as I was just a little high at 50 yards and thought that might put me about right at 100. A few expletives under my breath, and some adjustments using my range box Guppie, I was back on track with the elevation adjustment bottomed out and shooting 12" high, but grouping at 50 yards.

Now, I know I started off 3" high on the last trip. I am not sure how I ended up with my adjustment maxed and still 12" off this time around. All I can figure is the mounting screws also came loose. Tomorrow I guess I will be taking everything off the barrel and remounting it. If anyone has any other ideas I would love to hear them.

I will lso be ordering the FP-TK Encore sights. Why anyone, including a company, would install drift sights when "target knob" "micrometer" sights retail for $30 is absolutely beyond me.

I hate to think about the ammunition, travel, and range time I have into this.
 
Why not shoot the cowboy loads that are fun and don't kick like a mule? I've used them to turn wooden pallets into kindling and that's about as much fun shooting as you can do.

People are killing deer with 357, 44, and 45 Colt so these 45-70 cowboy loads ought to be a class above that. Range should be as good as most can handle open sights.

It seems like this caliber would work well with a sabot round like those 12 gauge slugs, don't know if someone makes one with like a .30 caliber bullet.
 
I shoot a Browning copy of the Winchester M1895. Its build for modern heavy 45-70 loads but I load them to the old BP pressures and velocities.

I use BP but if I get lazy and don't want to go through the cleaning gaggle I load 4198 to the old military velocity of about 1200 fps for the 405 cast bullet.

Its mild and accurate. More the adequate for deer at 100 yards. If you know you Ballistic tables for your load, and have the sights, it works a hell of a lot farther.

I have veneer sights on mine, it will shot a lot farther then I can. For long range I do have cheek weld problems though and this picture shows.

If I remember right, that line indicates the 1000 yard sight settings for 1000 yard BP loads.

45-70.jpg
 
If I remember right, that line indicates the 1000
yard sight settings for 1000 yard BP loads.
Click to expand...
Anyone having ever carried a mortar base will have no
problem wrapping his mind around that picture.

:D
 
Why not shoot the cowboy loads that are fun and don't kick like a mule?
Click to expand...
The recoil wasn't unbearable on any of them. The 325 Hornady were the only ones I have ruled out, and I could use those if they were all I had. I think they use faster burning powders to make the most of shorter barrels in some of the newer lever guns. Of course, I didn't try any REALLY stout loads. I'm well passed that choice anyways.

For the range I am at I may have a 357 max barrel by next year.
 
New front sight installed and a day at the range today.
I Really like the feel of this rifle and it is much more accurate than I need. A little more time with it and I am sure I will have some sub-MOA groups with factory ammunition. Well beyond my hunting needs.

My first Katahdin barrel and I can see why they no longer make them. The sight combo simply doesn't work that well. The front sight is the TC muzzle loader sight and it is far too large for longer ranges. Even at 100 yards it obscures a huge portion of the target including the entire center circle. At 2-300 yards I think it would be very difficult to position vertically on a deer sized target.
As I adjusted the rear sight it became apparent it was not machined to extremely tight tolerances. Each time I adjusted windage or elevation the other would change slightly. The change in windage was worse when I adjusted elevation, but I had issues with each. 4-5 MOA change in windage with elevation adjustment and about 1 MOA change in elevation with windage change.

I will either have the williams target knob sight for next year or just give up on hunting with iron sights, which will be a hit to my ego, and go with a scope.

If legal I might hunt with my Garand simply b/c the sights are so incredibly good.
 
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