guntotin_fool
New member
Hmmmmm Context is everything. A .45-70 is a perfectly adequate Stopper when loaded to modern levels on the right game. It might not be the best elephant gun, but will stop the game being discussed.
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45/70 and big bears.
- Thread starter The Terminator
- Start date
Hmmmmm Context is everything. A .45-70 is a perfectly adequate Stopper when loaded to modern levels on the right game. It might not be the best elephant gun, but will stop the game being discussed.
458Win
one of us
Posted 08 February 2008 22:36 Hide Post
Folks can choose to listen to the "expert' of their choice and are free to use whatever caliber they want.
The 30-06 was the most popular guides rifle for nearly fifty years and worked just fine for the man who could shoot.I have used mine to kill quite a few large Brown bears and still say that anyone who claims it is ineffective has either not used one - or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship. I still carry one much of the time.
I do use a 458 Win - and have for the past twenty five years - when guiding Brown Bear hunters as my shooting consists in cleaning up messes made by folks who could not competently use the big magnum they were using.
Choose a rifle you can shoot well, choose a good bullet and practice with it.
And for what it is worth "living year around in the bush" does not mean never going any place. I just spent the last two weeks at the SCI and SHOT shows and am currently visiting clients for two weeks before heading back to Alaska.
"The whole problem with the world is that fools & fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubt" Bertrand Russell
Phil Shoemaker www.grizzlyskinsofalaska.com
You might get a hold of Phil Shoemaker. He's been guiding in Alaska for 25 years.
You can also contact him through accuratereloading.com
His screen name is 458Win
He's a famous Alaska Bear guide, and, his choice is a .458 Winmag.
Rob Leahy, a holstermaker up there, was using a .375 H&H for taking out the trash.
It's too bad Ken(Wildalaska) didn't weigh in on this, since he's in Alaska...You might PM him, since he sells guns in Alaska...
Last edited:
Art Eatman
Staff in Memoriam
The first I ever read of hard-cast, large-meplat bullets was in articles on hunting as written by Ross Seyfried. Somewhere in the vicinity of 20 to 25 years ago.
He used a .454 Casull on an Australian water buffalo. I think the bullet was around 300 to 330 grains. IIRC, there was full penetration on a cross-body shot. I really don't recall if any second shot was needed beyond possibly a coup de grace.
So, I can see where somebody would use this sort of bullet in a rifle. From comments above, the critical issue seems to be the quality control of the casting.
He used a .454 Casull on an Australian water buffalo. I think the bullet was around 300 to 330 grains. IIRC, there was full penetration on a cross-body shot. I really don't recall if any second shot was needed beyond possibly a coup de grace.
So, I can see where somebody would use this sort of bullet in a rifle. From comments above, the critical issue seems to be the quality control of the casting.
Art: Close. It was an asian water buffalo, and, a .475 Linebaugh. He shot it going away, with 1" long chopped down solids. He hit the animal well twice, but, because he couldn't crimp the Trophy Bonded bullets properly, no groves for crimping, the two in the gun jumped crimp, locking his gun up.
He went to just LBT's after that.
He told me on the phone he got off 5 shots, 45 Colt, loaded at 454 levels, 360 grains at 1550 fps, and, it just barely stopped the cape buffalo that was going to kill him..
I've got just about every article he ever wrote, so, If I'm wrong, drop me the G&A issue, and, I'll look it up.
If you look at the Linebaugh penetration tests, when the Garrett Hammerheads expand, they loose about 50% of their penetration ability.
He went to just LBT's after that.
He told me on the phone he got off 5 shots, 45 Colt, loaded at 454 levels, 360 grains at 1550 fps, and, it just barely stopped the cape buffalo that was going to kill him..
I've got just about every article he ever wrote, so, If I'm wrong, drop me the G&A issue, and, I'll look it up.
If you look at the Linebaugh penetration tests, when the Garrett Hammerheads expand, they loose about 50% of their penetration ability.
Swampghost
New member
A former employer of mine (machine shop) and big game hunter (Africa) had us making solid bullets out of 360 free-cut brass. The crates would arrive a few mos. after he returned so I assumed that they worked OK.
I should also mention that he was a P.E. and rolled his own. I'm not recommending this to anyone, just saying that it is possible with the right know-how.
On the 1K+ shot on the Indian (I'm part Lakota, Blackfeet and Cherokee), the guy was supposedly taunting the Buff hunters. Bad for him and maybe a very lucky shot made by someone else, I know that I've had a few.
I should also mention that he was a P.E. and rolled his own. I'm not recommending this to anyone, just saying that it is possible with the right know-how.
On the 1K+ shot on the Indian (I'm part Lakota, Blackfeet and Cherokee), the guy was supposedly taunting the Buff hunters. Bad for him and maybe a very lucky shot made by someone else, I know that I've had a few.
Punch bullets do it right. Crimp grove and texture on the outside to grip the case mouth, IIRC.
Last I heard, it was illegal to make monometal bullets, since they qualified as armour piercing, thanks to some law. The work around is you have to drill the base out, put another substance like lead in, and then sell them. Impala, Rhino, GS etc don't have that problem...
Last I heard, it was illegal to make monometal bullets, since they qualified as armour piercing, thanks to some law. The work around is you have to drill the base out, put another substance like lead in, and then sell them. Impala, Rhino, GS etc don't have that problem...
guntotin_fool
New member
you brought up phil. It was his daughter who killed a large brown with a 686 and heavy .357's. If that wasn't adequate for the job I don't think Phil would have let her try.
Phil also has used a 1895 Winchester as his back up in various '06 based chamberings so he must feel those are sufficient as well.
Have you ever shot anything with a stoked 45 70? There doesn't seem to be much difference in terminal performance between a well made 400 gr. and a 500 grainer.
Further more I would like to know who deleted my previous post
asking about Mr. Socrates hunting experience? I am tired of deleted posts.
Phil also has used a 1895 Winchester as his back up in various '06 based chamberings so he must feel those are sufficient as well.
Have you ever shot anything with a stoked 45 70? There doesn't seem to be much difference in terminal performance between a well made 400 gr. and a 500 grainer.
Further more I would like to know who deleted my previous post
asking about Mr. Socrates hunting experience? I am tired of deleted posts.
guntotin_fool
New member
Monolithic bullets are just fine. Asquare still make bronze monolithic solids and a Barnes x bullet is monolithic copper if you want AP that doesn't look like it the old Hornady tungston core steel jacketed will do a fair job.
The question was:
I'm just trying to answer the questions asked. I don't know anyone that uses the 45-70 as a bear hunting or backup gun. I know a few folks that use the .500 JRH, and other pistols, and a few rifles, custom made, for Alaska, for bears, hunting and as carry while fishing.
The only guys I know from the net that actually hunts stuff
in Alaska are Phil Shoemaker, and Rob Leahy, and only from internet posts.
Phil posted:
So, from that, I take it hunting with a 30-06, if you can shoot, is fine for brown bears, and, trying to back someone who can't, he likes the .458Win.
Rob Leahy owns Simply Rugged Leather, in Alaska. His take out the trash gun is a .375 H&H, last time I wrote him.
Since no one here has ACTUALLY used the 45-70 for what the OP asked, I provided information on people that have. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
By the way, Mr. Shoemaker's recommendations are about what the Parks department came up with. IIRC, they suggest first the 458 Win mag, and, if you can't shoot that, a 375 H&H. Next was a 12 gauge with our slugs, IIRC.
I think that we all agree, the 45/70 will kill any animal in North America. In Georgia, for sure. But, has anyone ever depended on one for grizzlies, or polar bears, or kodiak bears, as a defense or for hunting?
If in the situation, would you feel that you had enough gun? Is it really used that much in Alaska? How much of its name is marketing technique, and how much is function? I can only speculate, I'd like to hear from those in the know. - Best
I'm just trying to answer the questions asked. I don't know anyone that uses the 45-70 as a bear hunting or backup gun. I know a few folks that use the .500 JRH, and other pistols, and a few rifles, custom made, for Alaska, for bears, hunting and as carry while fishing.
The only guys I know from the net that actually hunts stuff
in Alaska are Phil Shoemaker, and Rob Leahy, and only from internet posts.
Phil posted:
The 30-06 was the most popular guides rifle for nearly fifty years and worked just fine for the man who could shoot.I have used mine to kill quite a few large Brown bears and still say that anyone who claims it is ineffective has either not used one - or is unwittingly commenting on their marksmanship. I still carry one much of the time.
I do use a 458 Win - and have for the past twenty five years - when guiding Brown Bear hunters as my shooting consists in cleaning up messes made by folks who could not competently use the big magnum they were using.
Choose a rifle you can shoot well, choose a good bullet and practice with it.
So, from that, I take it hunting with a 30-06, if you can shoot, is fine for brown bears, and, trying to back someone who can't, he likes the .458Win.
Rob Leahy owns Simply Rugged Leather, in Alaska. His take out the trash gun is a .375 H&H, last time I wrote him.
Since no one here has ACTUALLY used the 45-70 for what the OP asked, I provided information on people that have. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
By the way, Mr. Shoemaker's recommendations are about what the Parks department came up with. IIRC, they suggest first the 458 Win mag, and, if you can't shoot that, a 375 H&H. Next was a 12 gauge with our slugs, IIRC.