44mag vs 10mm for bear defense

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parks71

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I've done tons of reading up on this but I wanted to put a different perspective on it. I am looking for a fairly light weight gun for BLACK bear defense while hiking. NO GRIZZLYS. I dont think it is debatable which round would work better, the .44.

So I was thinking the Taurus 444 or the S&W329, both light weight .44. The max recommended load for the Taurus is 240 Grain but most recommend 220. I have never owned a Taurus, but my friend is a huge gun collector and has had problems with numerous Taurus guns which makes me nervous. I will not use this gun for a range gun at all. So that leaves the S&W but that thing is over 900.00 which means I would need to sell a gun to get this gun and I really dont want to do that but I was convinced I needed to.

Then I thought, maybe a 10mm Glock would work. I did some research and some say a 10mm will kill a BLACK bear and others say file off the front site, yeah you know the joke. I thought screw it, I'll just go with a .44

Then I started thinking, I dont think I am going to hit much in quick developing situation like that with using double action which means I have to cock it. That can slow things down. Then, my follow up shot, it would take a bit because of the recoil of a light 44 and I would have to yet cock it again. If I were hunting with this gun, sure, cocking it would be no big deal but not in a crisis.

SO then I was thinking, with the Glock 10mm, the trigger pull is nice and I can double tap fairly fast. Lets face it, you're not getting but 1-2 shots at a bear if you have to use a gun but with a 10mm, that might be 2-4 instead of 1-2 shots. Then, I dont care what caliber you use, its all about shot placement. I feel like shot placement would be better with the Glock for the reasons stated above. I have shot many many Deer with high cal rifles and they still run off so anything but a head shot and the damn bear will still probably be charging.

So the question is, will a 10mm penetrate a bear skull? If it will, I feel like while its not better than a 44, but more practical in just about every way.

FYI, I do have and carry bear spray and that would be my obvious first choice. THere several situations though wher e bear spray is not the correct answer like if you were in a tent and u got attacked (happened 3 times last year along in Colorado in the middle of the night) or if the wind is blowing in your face, dont want to spray myself which would make things worse. Or if you didnt see the bear or mountain lion coming and he was already on you, good luck with that spray!

So what do you guys think? Will the 10mm penetrate a bear skull? Double tab 10mm ammo says its over 1200fps with a 200gr bullet, sounds like it would.
 
Both will work with the right bullet selection and shot placement. Obviosly practice is crucial especially with harder double action pulls from a revolver. I have gotten very good with my trigger control double action by practicing with snap caps and resting a quarter on top of the flat part at the end of the barrel. Practice being able to dryfire and not have that quarter move. A lazer works great for this also but is not in my budget.... so I use the quarter.... I have seen a huge improvement..

Choose which one you like and practice. Then choose the propper bullets that will penetrate best. Thats whats most important. Practice ne handed shooting... cause in a self defence sitiaution you probably wont have time to use two hands...

The main advantage a revolver has over a semi is that it does not have to extract the fired shell to chamber a new one. If you go with a semi... Its even more important to make sure your gun functions with the ammo you choose. Practice with a bad grip... cause you may not have a perfect grip. Make sure it functions even on a limp rist IMO. Of course definetly try any ammo in a revolver also to make sure it shoots reliably but that extra step a semi has with extraction makes it more suseptible to problems...

Honestly... I'd take a 44 over a 10mm semi... I would want it to be able to shoot some of the 310 grn loads from garret cartridges and the other competetors like buffalo bore even though I wouldn't shoot them often if ever. But I'm the type who like the ability to if I desire. Of course you can shoot 44 spl also.

Now a 10mm/40 cal revolver might be another option I'd look at. But I really want a 44.
That or a John Ross Performance center S&W500:D
But I know a 44 with the right loads should do everything I could need. Shoot the 357 with 180-200grn loads at 1400 and 1200 fps are probably plenty.

Member Kraigwy has said he hasn't found anything a 357 158 semi wadcutter couldn't do for the most part regarding animal penetration in the lower 48. He has way more experiance than I... Thats what I know....
 
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I appreciate the input lamb. Just to play devils advocate, I agree revolvers in general are more reliable than semi autos and that is on of my concerns as well. With that said, I have seen numerous issues with timing and casings getting stuck in the taurus (although the casings getting stuck is not an issue for this purpose, there will be no time for a reload).

Glock makes on of the most reliable semiautos made. Not fail proof but to be honest I would trust it more than a taurus revolver from the research I have done. I like your advice about putting the quarter on it but that sounds great for comp shooting, not crisis situation where no matter how hard we try, we will have adrenaline going and pulling double action probably wont have the best results.

If I were to go to a .44 that takes the large loads, then they get heavy and heavy is not good for long weekend hikes. Every ounce counts. The chance of me having to use this gun is slim to none and I would hate to carry the extra weight. Especially since I will use bear spray first if I am able to. I am glad to hear you think the 10mm would work though although its not the ideal load for the situation. But then again, the ideal gun would be a 12ga shotgun. Thanks again for your well thought input!
 
It sounds like you decision is made, you just want someone to say you made the right decision. The 10mm Glock can work for bear defense. I would load some Buffalo Bore hard cast in it and go forth.

My personal choice would be a S&W Mountain gun in 44 mag loaded with 240 hard cast SWC at about 1400 FPS.

By the time you load 15 rounds of 10mm and an extra magazine or 2, you are at the same weight as the Smith 44.
 
I've got them both.. 629-3 4 inch .44 magnum and Glock 20 10mm.

Bear defense? Oh, 12 gauge Mossie 500 Mariner (regular stock, not that stupid cruiser grip) with Black Magic Magnum 3 shells.

The handguns are only if I'm away from the shottie.

Deaf
 
Don't have to cock double action

parks71 said:
Then I started thinking, I dont think I am going to hit much in quick developing situation like that with using double action which means I have to cock it.
Click to expand...
With a single action revolver you have to cock the hammer in order to fire. With a double action revolver, your trigger finger draws the hammer back and releases it in one smooth (albeit heavier, as Lambdebois mentioned).

The 10mm is a lighter bullet, by about 30% in the heavies slugs commonly available (200 grains for the 10 and 300 grains for the 44). Generally, heavier bullets penetrate better. Remember, energy shreds flesh. Momentum breaks bone.

The 10mm can do the job on most black bears and no bullet weight can make u for bad placement, so whatever gun you choose, practice with it a lot. You don't have to have the great bulk of your practice with full power loads, but you do have to be able to place that first shot on target, fast. (Remember, no one flinches on the FIRST shot.)

You will probably want separate recoil springs for your 10mm, one for practice loads and one for the heavies. Hard cast lead with a wide meplat (flat nose) that may expand a little, but hold together and penetrate through tough muscle and get to vital organs. The last thing you want to do is leave a wounded bear out in the woods. Well, maybe the second-to-last thing.

Have you considered the Ruger 44 Mag? Redhawks and Super Redhawks are tough and can take heavy loads for practice longer than most shooters can. A decent holster goes a long way towards making the weight tolerable. If you can find a 4" or 5.5" Redhawk in 44 mag or 45 Colt with appropriate loadings will be less expensive than either the Taurus or the Glock, I think.

I note that the 41 Magnum is essentially the same diameter as the 10mm, and throws a heavier bullet with more authority than most 10mm guns can stand for any length of time.

Good luck,

Lost Sheep
 
D Smith has the best advise.:) Just aim you handgun at a mature bear some time. Look how small your handgun looks while sighting across it at the bear.:eek:
 
My decision is not made actually but I would prefer the Glock if it will do the job due to price and weight. I wouldnt carry and extra mag or two, if I cant kill the damn thing with 15 im done anyway. Id honestly be lucky to get off 2 or more. The weight to be able to shoot those rounds you like goes up a lot which wears on ya!

Shotgun is not an option because I'll be in the woods for days at a time but you're right, thats the best choice!!!
 
Lostsheep, thanks for the well thought out post. Are cast load a must? I read that Glock can not shoot them with out changing the barrel out. I was looking at double tab 200gr which comes highly recommended by some.

The .41 I would have the same issue as with any revolver. Double action/single action which means I need to be damn good at a hard double action trigger pull or be able to cock the gun vs a smooth consitant trigger pull of a glock.
 
I think you are fine with the 10mm. I would carry my S&W 41 mag Mountain Gun, but would have to get a better holster that I can work with it on.
 
It will make very very little difference for BLACK bear defense. A friend of mine killed one that was intent on eating his mother a few years ago. It was pacing around her in circles trying to figure out how to get past their large dog. My buddy heard the commotion and grabbed his .40 S&W Beretta 96. At about .40 yards he braced his hands on the balcony railing and fired once. His 180gr Hydra-Shok penetrated enough to pass through the bottom of the critter's heart. It ran off about 75 yards and expired.

I know of another man, a USFS employee, who *claims* to have killed a good sized black bear with 9mm auto, but he did unload the gun in doing so.


YES a 10mm with 200gr at 1200 fps WILL penetrate a BLACK bear's skull. But you've gotta hit it first!
 
I have no experiance with tauras. I've only handled a judge. I hear the super redhawks are good and reliable. But they are larger than you want. I have heard and read enough about issues that I'd be cautious and probably would not choose one simply because I am a S&W and Ruger fan when it comes to revolvers and reliability. Sure all things wear and even a smith or ruger may have issues. But I would trust my life to a ruger or smith revolver any day. The are top notch. Just make sure the ammo you plan to use functions in the gun. Some cylinders on revolvers cant fit the longer more powerful rounds you might want to use that other have.

Another thing to consider is glocks use polygonal rifling or something and leads bullets are not recomended so you may have to but an aftermarket barrel to shoot the lead bullets I'd want for bear protection.

As for the trigger control.... I cant say how much it would help in a real life situation... but I'd sure rather practice and build that muscle memery and control than not have don't you agree? I can keep tyhat quarter still and pull the trigger double action non stop without it moving practicing with snap caps though. Also watch to keep your sights on target at the same time. Then go shoot for real and practice. Practice. Keep your eye on firing pin immpressions if your shooting hot loads....

Now to play devels advocate back at you.... I ccw a Glock 32;) So I do trust the gun. 3000 rounds of all kind and never a hickup. A friends one had a bad mag... but that was not hard to remedy. Its what she carry's with fmj and is comfortable with. Ive carried a 4" 686+ with bb 180 LFN-GC in the rockies of colorado. I always have a mossberg 500 with usually brenkke black majic slugs near by also when in bear country. The weight of the 686 doesn't bother me. Honestly... After my back injury.... The only time I can see myself pulling the trigger on my more powerfull long guns any more or if it was to save my life. It just hurts me too much anymore. And I''m only 31. I'll probably sell them because of that and buy a couple handguns I can enjoy. Maybe keep my 06 and one 12 gauge....

Get either. Practicing proficiency and other critical skill are what is going to save your live. We both know the 44 is better. I think we both agree a 10mm with the right bullet will certainlly do the job also though.

If you go for the glock... add in the price of an aftermaket barrel if you want to shoot the hardcast lead I'd want to have and not just bullets with jackets.
 
I would rather have one four to six foot long wound channel with a LBT bullet than three two foot to four foot long wound channels. The .44 mag is way more gun.
 
I choose the Glock 20 in 10mm. When in bear country it is loaded with 16 rounds of Double Tap 200 gr hardcast @ 1300 fps. I have both a 3" and 4" S&W 629 in 44 mag as well as a 4' S&W 28 in 357 mag that stay home. Unless you are using at least 6" of barrel the magnum revolvers are giving you much less velocity than advertised.

Even in bear country I'm still more concerned about predators with 2 legs and chose a gun for that 1st, and bear defense 2nd. The 10mm fills that role very well. It is much smaller, lighter and easier to carry along with other hiking gear. It holds 2.5X as much ammo in a chambering that will outperform even the hottest 357 loads from short barrrels and is much closer to 44 mag performance when they are fired in 4" or shorter barrels.
 
bears

A few years back a pair of NPS rangers killed a pair of black bears that had just fatally mauled a woman by the creekside near Gatlinburg TN. They did it with multiple .40 S&W rounds.

I believe a heavy, hard .357 would penetrate a black bear skull, maybe even through the body on a smallish one. So a heavy 10mm would do as well.

As a rule, .44 Mag revolvers a big, bulky guns, and, though fine weapons, many have fragile target typesights and the lockwork of a double action is complex.

I'd vote for a Glock 20, fixed sights. Flat, easy to carry and tough. Enough gun, but not a hassle to carry.
 
Either will do if you can do your part. I have run into a few black bears and they all though I looked like trouble and took off the other way. If you ever do need your gun you probably will only have time for one or two shots. Weigh is a big concern and the gun you will always carry is better that the one in camp because it got too heavy. :D
 
Some reallys solid advice here and I appreciate it guys. I am sold on the Glock, now just a matter of which version. I am going to go look at them today. Normal vs SF will be personal preference but 20 vs 29.....

15 rounds is nice out of the 20 but for a pure outdoors gun I really dont think I need 15 rounds. I think the 11 the 29 holds is plenty. I have read many posts about people that have them both and say they kick about the same.

So the 29 is lighter, easier to carry but holds less rounds.

I guess the real question I have is, will I lose much power using the shorter barrel? Enough to worry about anyway? Thanks again for all the help!!!
 
Just for perspectve the G-29 is actully about the same overall length and weight as a 2" sp-101, The G-20 is about the same size and weight as a 3" sp-101.

Either is easier to carry than a full size revolver, and 15 round magazines can be used in the G29.

I chose the G20 to get a slightly longer sight radius, but would probably be just as happy with the G29 which would be even easier to conceal.

The SF frame was not an option when I bought and my hand is big enough to easily handle it. But after holding a SF version I don't see why Glock even offers the regular version. Lots of people cannot get their hand around the standard frame, but I've never heard a single complaint from guys with big hands about the SF being too small.
 
You sound like you favor being prepared. Generally, black bears are skittish, and I've never been attacked, though my attitude toward this topic may change should I be attacked. I'd say the 10mm would be just fine. It's a better carry platform as far as size and capacity. Realistically, I think the .45 auto would work as well. Somehow, I've wandered around black bear country my whole life with nothing bigger than a .357, and nothing bad has happened to me. Most of the time, all I have is a .22. That being said, I've seen cubs and mamas, and I've been lucky enough to avoid them. If you were talking grizz, I'd check your sanity somewhat, but a 10mm with good double tap or buffalo bore would be more than enough for the little blackies.
 
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