44 Special shoot , not to good,question or two.

G

gunnny12

New member
Well Hi all;

I took the Redhawk to the range yesterday, and shot the 44 specials I had made up.

All came out like 38's or lower, strange the few next to me looking at the big gun, going off like a 38, pop, instead of bang.Funny that.
All fired okay, but a lot of powder in the cylinder and in the case after firing.
Had to blow out the cylinders to put more rounds in as powder was all over the inside say a bit not a whole lot but enough, plus what was in the case.
Okay I checked the loads using both the RCBS digital chargemaster, and also the RCBS 502 beam scale loads way in line with the throw of 14.3 grs,IMR 4227 powder.Max is 15.2 I think so well in reason.
The crimp was light on these hardly noticeable but it did hold bullet tight, as I set one a tad deep and using the bullet puller to move it took a bunch of wacks to move it a tad.

Bullet is 200 gr, Hornady HP 44 mag 430 diameter, XTP.
Remington 2 1/2 Large pistol primers.
Cases Starline new 44 special cases measured to 1.50 length.
Bullet OAL as by Lyman 1.495.
I am thinking the crimp not hard enough, or the primers not hot enough to light all the powder.
Never had any experience with 44 Specials, 44's I use to load and shoot never a problem.
Any help from you 30 plus year loaders appreciated, or less . LOL
I do have a taper die for 44 which will also do the special I think also.
Also some double strikes on the factory 44 mag regular rounds 240 gr bullets a strike but no fire until a second hit, Bros' old ammo he left me, RIP Bro.
Remington bullets, a real light strike not heavy second strike was harder, trying the pull the trigger fast deal.

Thanks All.



Jeff
 
From what I'm reading, nothing really stands out as obviously wrong. I use pretty close to the same load you're using and I do get some carbon build up but thats after around 50-100 rounds. I had a kid at a indoor range give me that same expression once before. I emptied out my Trail Boss light loads and threw in a HEALTHY 4227 pushing a 300gr XTP. No more comments from the peanut galley. lol. Gotta love the ability to go from extremely soft loads to "hold on to your butts" loads.
 
My first thoughts were a slow, "Magnum", powder (for .44 Special) loaded kinda light with no/light crimp. Low pressure and powder didn't have optimum environment for complete burn...

Personally I'd go with a faster powder and a heavier crimp...:rolleyes:
 
Agree. 4227 is much happier starting in the 25,000-30,000 psi range and going up, or it doesn't burn completely. I've had 2400 do the same thing when I tried to make light loads with it back about 30-35 years ago when I still didn't know much about handloading. And the loads were published ones. It's just that the unburned flakes finally jammed the cylinder rotation in my revolver.

Try Trail Boss if you want squeaky clean mild loads. You could also try about 5 grains of Bullseye. I used to shoot soft swaged 240 grain 44 Specials with just 3.9 grains of Bullseye and got good accuracy to 25 yards with it (about 1.5" groups at that range). The smaller charge also costs you a lot less per round. The main drawback is it doesn't fill the case worth a whit, so accidental double-charges are more of a risk. Bullseye also spreads some graphite around, so it's not super clean. It just won't leave a lot of obviously unburned powder around or keep you from loading the next string. The fast powders seal the case against the chamber wall better to prevent powder granules from working there way between the brass and chamber wall.
 
Jumping on the Bandwagon

One of the previous posts probably summarized this, but I note the following possibilities:

1.) Powder burn rate too slow for charge weight/chamber pressure intended.
2.) Insufficient crimp.
3.) Insufficient projectile mass.
4.) Some firearms prefer a particular load over others for causes not amenable to the average reloader.

Of the 4 possibilities, the crimp seems the easiest to manipulate. I've had handloads that burned semi-dirty, but cleaned up nicely when I turned the crimping die down(i.e., increasing the crimp) 1/8 turn on the press.

If the increased crimp alone doesn't make the load burn more cleanly, bumping the powder charge up in 0.1gr. increments might help. My hesitation about adjusting the charge weight upward very much is that by the time the powder charge is high enough to burn cleanly, you may have converted your "easy shooting" load to a "semi-magnum" load, which defeats the purpose.

Double check your reloading data source and see if you can safely use a 215gr. or 240gr. projectile with that powder charge. I couldn't even FIND data on Hodgdon's website for 4227 and 240 gr. bullets, in .44 Special. Both these bullet weights are available as cast projectiles, so cost of trying them should be lower than a 100-count box of same-weight jacketed projectiles might cost.

These days, I know that people look forward to buying a new pound of powder about like they look forward to a root canal, but if the above two remedies don't prove satisfactory, it may be time to bite the bullet (please excuse pun) and do it. My experience with Hodgdon/IMR/Winchester/Whatever pistol powders is not extensive, but Universal, 700-X, or 231, respectively, would probably work. Alliant Unique or Herco would likely be my first choice among all powders. AA#5, from Accurate/Western powders is also a good, clean, medium-fast burning powder that I would expect to work well in .44 Special. Both AA#5 and W231 are ball powders, which I hesitate to use in large-capacity revolver cases for fear of double charging. If you use either one, please exercise due caution. Someone in this string recommended using Herco in .44 Special, and I concur with that recommendation. It is slightly slower-burning than Unique, and almost as versatile. If I could only have one pistol/shotgun powder, I would want Unique. If I couldn't find any, I would want Herco.

You may find Skeeter Skelton's 7.5/Unique/240SWC load useful in your RedHawk. According to Mr. Skelton, it clocked 950 f/s, so you should have ample room to move charge weights in either direction.

Forgot to add that you should make changes ONE AT A TIME, when tuning up the loads. DO NOT increase charge weight, bullet weight and crimp, all in the same batch of reloads. Given the powder/charge/bullet combination you mention, I would expect your RedHawk to handle the increased pressure without incident, but changing all these things at once is generally bad practice.
 
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14.3 would be a light load. Won't make a loud noise. How's it shoot? That's the only thing that matters.
Only data I have is for a cast 205 with gas check in my old Lyman book. Close enough to a 200. Shows 14.0 at 800FPS is the starting load. Max is 21.0 at 1226 fps.
"...it did hold bullet tight..." That's all a crimp needs to do. Rule Number One. It works. Don't fix it.
"...1.50 length..." No way that's right. Max case length is 1.160". Trim to is 1.152". Max OAL with bullet is 1.615".
 
All great replies, thanks I might turn the crimp in a tad, or use the Taper crimp die.

As to powder my issue Lyman 48 I have the 49 also, states the same 200 gr. Hornady at 200 gr with 14.3 of the IMR 4227.set at a depth of 1.495.

The unbrunt powder is wild never had that in any of my Rife rounds , maybe need to use a Winchester primer or CCI?

Dirt load is what is and not accurate at all really.




Jeff
 
As usual, Unclenick covered everything. So I'm just going high level, and share some experience.

44 Special is a low pressure, cavernous cartridge. Those two attributes lend itself to fast powders. In 44 Special, the only thing I load 200 grain bullets with is Bullseye and Titegroup - and even Titegroup can show signs of underloading if they're not pumped up a bit. And with 240 grainers, I might use Unique if I really want to load them up hot (rare); but even with 240's, Titegroup usually gets the call. Titegroup delivers plenty of performance for 44 Special.

4227 is just way too slow for any application in 44 Special. It's a "magnum slow" propellant and serves best for long barreled magnum revolvers and lever action carbine rifles. It has no place in a 44 Special cartridge.
 
Gunny12 said:
The unbrunt powder is wild never had that in any of my Rife rounds , maybe need to use a Winchester primer or CCI?
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Nope. Won't fix it. Been there, done that experiment. The only thing that will fix it is loading up to magnum pressures in your Redhawk. Slow powders need higher pressures and temperatures to burn well. Higher temperature and pressure is what overcomes the deterrent chemicals that make the powder slow. Absent that, the powder doesn't break down and release oxygen fast enough to burn either uniformly or completely. If you have a chronograph you will likely find a lot of velocity variation from shot to shot with this load. But creep it up toward magnum levels and you will see the debris clean up and the velocity variation decrease.
 
A lot of what I have read about using 4227 for 45Colt, suggested using a magnum primer for best burn rate. I'd think that might help with 44special too. Keep in mind, I have not done it myself and read it on the net ;)
 
Bumping up the crimp and trying magnum-type primers are simple to try, and may work SOME, particularly if used together (but I wouldn't change both things in one batch of reloads). But I think the real solution is to use a faster-burning powder to obtain the velocities you desire with a cleaner burn. Even powders like IMR 800-X or HS-6 might work better.

Unique works very well in .44Spl, whether light or +P loads are desired. Herco's the same way, just a bit better than Unique at the top end of the load spectrum.
 
All good answers again, and good one unclenick , making you a part of the family.

Will try the harder crimp first and a slight increase in powder also.

No Unique here I have Bullseye.

If I did would the load be the same,and the OAL also?



Jeff
 
No Unique here
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Sportsmen's has Unique 1# on line right now . . . If you're willing to go down the hazmat road. Also, it has been my experience that when Sportsmen's has powders available on line, they tend to have it at their brick-n-mortar stores as well - or will soon. It's a hit-n-miss thing though. I'm not a "Uniquefreak," but I do think it would serve your application well.

(I also think attempting to use 4227 is a completely lost cause that is so far out of the question, I'm surprised it's still being discussed. The only way 4227 is going to run right is if you pump them up to Magnum level rounds in a Special case. At which point, they're not really 44 Special rounds at all. But that's just my opinion.)

I have Bullseye.
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Bullseye would work pretty well IMO. No, it won't deliver maximum velocity, but it also won't give you the ongoing headaches you are going to have by trying (in vain) to make 4227 work.
 
So if I switch to bullseye , would the throw be the same?

I know it burns faster then the IMR 4227, so would I have to use less and the OAL would be the same?

Sorry for that but as not listed , have no way to find what to use.

Thanks

Jeff
 
Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique all will perfomr much better in a 44 special application. Crimping and magnum primers will not help enough to notice.
 
Agree with tim. For the low pressure rounds most powders will be dirty. 4227 is cleaner in hotter loads. I have never used it in .44 Special. That round Trail Boss is my go to powder. Light shooting, low flash from a snubnose, and clean burning. While the BE will be sooty it will be better than using 4227.
 
So if I switch to bullseye , would the throw be the same?
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Absolutely not. The throw (charge weight, or volume) would be far less. Filling the case with the same amount of Bullseye as 4227 (weight or volume) will result in extensive firearm damage, and probable personal injury. Do not do this. The fill level is going to look a lot different with Bullseye than with 4227 - there will be much less. It will likely fill the case maybe 1/3 full.

I know it burns faster then the IMR 4227
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Quite an understatement there. Bullseye burns much faster than IMR 4227. They're on opposite ends of the pistol powder burn rate spectrum.

so would I have to use less
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Much less. Hornady 9th shows from 4.3gn to 6.1gns. Since you're going to shoot them through a burly Redhawk 44 Mag gun, it isn't necessary that you start at 4.3. 4.3 is going to deliver a very weak round. My 200gn (Berry's plated) bullet is loaded with 5.0gn B'eye, and it's just target shooter range fodder - not spunky at all. I don't know your specific purpose, but considering you're loading Hornady XTP's, I presume it's something needing more juice than my weak rounds.

and the OAL would be the same?
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Yes. And that OAL would be "to the cannelure." The book states "1.470" but that's really neither here nor there. Assuming your brass is in spec (it likely is, if it's Starline and you haven't trimmed them), leave the calipers in the drawer and seat/crimp to the cannelure. Most loaders don't measure OAL with cannelured (or crimp groove, in the case of lead) bullets. OAL only comes into play with semi-auto cartridges; and revolver bullets with no cannelure (usually plated). When I started loading 31 years ago, I was loading all revolver rounds (with a crimp groove or cannelure), and I didn't even know why my starter kit came with a pair of calipers :p. Just seat them down to about 2/3 of the way through the cannelure range, crimp, and call it good.
 
Hold the phone! :eek:
It's obvious that, in addition to heeding the advice from Nick, you also really need to get a genuine reloading manual and read it front to back.
Maybe more than once.
 
Hold the phone!
It's obvious that, in addition to heeding the advice from Nick, you also really need to get a genuine reloading manual and read it front to back.
Maybe more than once.

Actually, have 5, most 20 plus years old, have the last one from Lyman, but no mention on Bullseye used on the 200 gr XHP that I have.

Even have that one from back in the 80's what was his name?

Got you after I checked bullseye web site say 5.9 for 200 gr lead so close.
also sent them a mail over it

Would never of loaded that without a lot of checks on powder.;)

Thanks again.


Jeff
 
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