I am curious, since they make 44 special as a cooler but effective option from the 44 magnum, why then don't they make the .41 special anymore as a cooler alternative to the .41 magnum? .38 always makes a good cooler alternative to the .357. Besides aren't there still a number of guns out there that fit the .41 special rounds only.
.41 special and .41 mag, .44 special and .44 mag
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
- Start date
Mike Irwin
Staff
This is a case of chicken - egg and which came first.
In the case of the .38/.357 and .44 Spl./.44 Mag., the Special cartridges came first.
There was no similar .41 Special cartridge that predated the .41 Mag. The .41 Mag was developed as a potential police firearm to offer better power than the .357 Mag., but with more controlability than the .44 Mag.
So, no, there aren't any guns chambered for .41 Special still around.
In the case of the .38/.357 and .44 Spl./.44 Mag., the Special cartridges came first.
There was no similar .41 Special cartridge that predated the .41 Mag. The .41 Mag was developed as a potential police firearm to offer better power than the .357 Mag., but with more controlability than the .44 Mag.
So, no, there aren't any guns chambered for .41 Special still around.
What about the Colt .41 caliber Army Special (same as the .38 Official Police only .41 caliber) and that came before the .41 magnumFirst there was...
And then...
First, there most certainly is a cartridge called the .41 Special. And there are quite a few custom revolver gunsmiths who will be only too happy to make you a gun chambered for it. No, it isn't a SAAMI cartridge but I sure wish it was. You can buy .41 Special brass (for a price) but it would be a dream if Starline would make it in bulk, a major ammo maker would make loaded ammo, and Ruger would chamber the XR3 Blackhawk in it. THAT I would have to buy! Probably several times. I would sure love to have a 50 Anniversary Blackhawk in .44 Special but .41 Special would be even better. I keep hoping (against reason) that the Cowboy shooters are somehow going to cause the whole .41 Special thing to actually "go mainstream."
Secondly, there was a .41 Short Colt and a .41 Long Colt. They started out in blackpowder and then went to a hollow base bullet in smokeless. That bullet was only .387" in diameter so quite a ways from being a true .41. It was supposed to expand upon firing to fill the rifling. Very obsolete. (Although one of the Colt SAA replica companies is offering guns in this chambering. At least I've seen that in their catalogs.)
Gregg
And then...
First, there most certainly is a cartridge called the .41 Special. And there are quite a few custom revolver gunsmiths who will be only too happy to make you a gun chambered for it. No, it isn't a SAAMI cartridge but I sure wish it was. You can buy .41 Special brass (for a price) but it would be a dream if Starline would make it in bulk, a major ammo maker would make loaded ammo, and Ruger would chamber the XR3 Blackhawk in it. THAT I would have to buy! Probably several times. I would sure love to have a 50 Anniversary Blackhawk in .44 Special but .41 Special would be even better. I keep hoping (against reason) that the Cowboy shooters are somehow going to cause the whole .41 Special thing to actually "go mainstream."
Secondly, there was a .41 Short Colt and a .41 Long Colt. They started out in blackpowder and then went to a hollow base bullet in smokeless. That bullet was only .387" in diameter so quite a ways from being a true .41. It was supposed to expand upon firing to fill the rifling. Very obsolete. (Although one of the Colt SAA replica companies is offering guns in this chambering. At least I've seen that in their catalogs.)
Gregg
Mr. Irwin is correct.
The .41 Mag is the only magnum revolver cartridge I know of that did not have a "special" version preceeding it (i.e. a shorter, slower cartridge round).
The .41 is a true .410 caliber, making it a slightly different size than the older .41 blackpowder era rounds if I recall my reading correctly.
So why isn't there a downloaded .41 caliber round? No one has seen the need for it yet. Nor has anyone developed it.
Current .41 Mag loadings below about 925fps seem to give poor accuracy, limiting the choices. Above 1200fps it can be very accurate at 50 yards. I'll admit I've never tried experimenting with a shorter case (time & $$) which might resolve the accuracy problem, as might a different twist rate for a lighter bullet (say 165 to 175gr LSWC).
The .41 Mag is the only magnum revolver cartridge I know of that did not have a "special" version preceeding it (i.e. a shorter, slower cartridge round).
The .41 is a true .410 caliber, making it a slightly different size than the older .41 blackpowder era rounds if I recall my reading correctly.
So why isn't there a downloaded .41 caliber round? No one has seen the need for it yet. Nor has anyone developed it.
Current .41 Mag loadings below about 925fps seem to give poor accuracy, limiting the choices. Above 1200fps it can be very accurate at 50 yards. I'll admit I've never tried experimenting with a shorter case (time & $$) which might resolve the accuracy problem, as might a different twist rate for a lighter bullet (say 165 to 175gr LSWC).
Come on guys. Quit saying things like this!
Or
Clearly, the .41 Special DOES exist. No ammo maker has stepped up to get SAAMI certification and make loaded ammo but that doesn't mean it "doesn't exist!"
Look in Cartridges of the World. In the 9th Edition it's on page 195. Yes, that is the wildcat section. But the .35 Whelen and 22-250 were wildcats for decades. Did that mean they "didn't exist" or that no one "had developed one?"
Gary Reeder would probably be surprised to hear he is building custom guns in a chambering which doesn't exist! http://www.reedercustomguns.com/gunnotes/gunnotes33.htm
Here's a great article on reloading the .41 Special and "what good it is" all in one. http://www.reloadingroom.com/page11.html
Or an article about customizing old Rugers to .41 Special. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_50/ai_n6081529
Gregg
Or
Clearly, the .41 Special DOES exist. No ammo maker has stepped up to get SAAMI certification and make loaded ammo but that doesn't mean it "doesn't exist!"
Look in Cartridges of the World. In the 9th Edition it's on page 195. Yes, that is the wildcat section. But the .35 Whelen and 22-250 were wildcats for decades. Did that mean they "didn't exist" or that no one "had developed one?"
Gary Reeder would probably be surprised to hear he is building custom guns in a chambering which doesn't exist! http://www.reedercustomguns.com/gunnotes/gunnotes33.htm
Here's a great article on reloading the .41 Special and "what good it is" all in one. http://www.reloadingroom.com/page11.html
Or an article about customizing old Rugers to .41 Special. http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_8_50/ai_n6081529
Gregg
hot .44 Special
Madison: http://www.georgia-arms.com/loaded_ammo.htm might disagree. If that doesn't take, go to the site's home page, click on Online Catalog, then "loaded ammuntion" page.
Madison: http://www.georgia-arms.com/loaded_ammo.htm might disagree. If that doesn't take, go to the site's home page, click on Online Catalog, then "loaded ammuntion" page.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"First, there most certainly is a cartridge called the .41 Special."
Which is a wildcat cartridges, outside of the context of the question originally asked.
If you search back through the archives here, you'll find some threads in which I was involved talking about loading data for .41 Special.
In the years when TFL was down I did a little experimenting, but found, as Bill noted, that accuracy just wasn't there, and that my gun, a Model 58 with fixed sights, simply wasn't up to the challenge.
Which is a wildcat cartridges, outside of the context of the question originally asked.
If you search back through the archives here, you'll find some threads in which I was involved talking about loading data for .41 Special.
In the years when TFL was down I did a little experimenting, but found, as Bill noted, that accuracy just wasn't there, and that my gun, a Model 58 with fixed sights, simply wasn't up to the challenge.
Last edited:
Mike Irwin
Staff
"What about the Colt .41 caliber Army Special (same as the .38 Official Police only .41 caliber) and that came before the .41 magnum"
That was in .41 Long Colt, a round that originally loaded had a .41 caliber bullet. However, it used what was known as a heeled bullet, which looks like a mushroom, with a larger "cap" and smaller "stem."
The cap is the same diameter as the outside of the case, which in the .41 LC was roughly .41 caliber. The stem, though, was .38 caliber. When the heeled bullet fell out of favor, the .41 Long Colt was loaded with bullets that were a consistent .38 caliber (no more cap, all stem). To make sure that the bullet engaged the rifling, it had a large hollow skirt that expanded when fired.
The .41 Magnum, on the other hand, used a bullet that was, from the beginning, .41 caliber, so the case is much larger around than the .41 Long Colt.
That was in .41 Long Colt, a round that originally loaded had a .41 caliber bullet. However, it used what was known as a heeled bullet, which looks like a mushroom, with a larger "cap" and smaller "stem."
The cap is the same diameter as the outside of the case, which in the .41 LC was roughly .41 caliber. The stem, though, was .38 caliber. When the heeled bullet fell out of favor, the .41 Long Colt was loaded with bullets that were a consistent .38 caliber (no more cap, all stem). To make sure that the bullet engaged the rifling, it had a large hollow skirt that expanded when fired.
The .41 Magnum, on the other hand, used a bullet that was, from the beginning, .41 caliber, so the case is much larger around than the .41 Long Colt.
Mike Irwin
Staff
Steve,
The 58 has fixed sights that are regulated for a 210-gr. bullet moving at approximately 1,000-1,100 fps.
The .44 Special loads I developed were only moving at around 700-800 fps, so I was shooting anywhere from 4 to 10 inches low, depending on the powder I was using.
Then there was also the issue of accuracy. Bill's right, accuray was pretty iffy.
The 58 has fixed sights that are regulated for a 210-gr. bullet moving at approximately 1,000-1,100 fps.
The .44 Special loads I developed were only moving at around 700-800 fps, so I was shooting anywhere from 4 to 10 inches low, depending on the powder I was using.
Then there was also the issue of accuracy. Bill's right, accuray was pretty iffy.
To expand on Mike's experiences with my own, using both a M58 and M57, the accuracy of slower moving .41 loads seems to drop off very quickly below about 950fps.
That was then, using bullets in the 200+ weight range. With newer bullets weighing in at 175 to 200gr, there might be some new possibilities.
My experiments were conducted with 4" revolvers and Unique powder. Other have tried with other powders with similar success. One thought is that the lighter charges of faster burning pistol powders are consumed completely before the bullet exits and that a larger charge of a slower powder might work better.
That was then, using bullets in the 200+ weight range. With newer bullets weighing in at 175 to 200gr, there might be some new possibilities.
My experiments were conducted with 4" revolvers and Unique powder. Other have tried with other powders with similar success. One thought is that the lighter charges of faster burning pistol powders are consumed completely before the bullet exits and that a larger charge of a slower powder might work better.
Uncle Ethan
New member
I have two M-57's -one w/6" bbl and the other 8-3/8- For accuracy I have to load above 1000fps, but I much prefer the .41 to the .44. I always wondered about cutting the case about 1/10" shorter to see if accuracy could be maintained at about 800fps.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"If you check out my link above about reloading the .41 Special, you will notice that guy got very good accuracy with lighter loads. Maybe the shorter case really does make things work better."
I read the article some time ago. Good for this gentleman, but his experiences don't, unfortunately, match mine, with or without the shorter cases.
With full-power (or near) ammo I can bench 2 to 3 inch groups at 25 yards with my 58. Not bad for my eyes the way they are any more.
The best .41 Special load I could get was with shortened cases, and was nearly 5".
I read the article some time ago. Good for this gentleman, but his experiences don't, unfortunately, match mine, with or without the shorter cases.
With full-power (or near) ammo I can bench 2 to 3 inch groups at 25 yards with my 58. Not bad for my eyes the way they are any more.
The best .41 Special load I could get was with shortened cases, and was nearly 5".
Uncle Ethan
New member
I did read your prior post about the .41 special and it seems to agree with everything I've heard - I wonder if seating a jacketed bullet deeper into the standard case would work as well? I don't find the .41 to be uncomfortable to shoot at just below 1100 FPS, and finding a good load for hunting backup of boar or bear is my real need. Ruger handguns are too heavy for long term carry-my S&W 1917 w/ a 6" bbl is ideal- it has all the extra weight pared away and is no bother to carry all day, but I doubt it's strength for hot loads.
Mike Irwin
Staff
"but I doubt it's strength for hot loads."
I certainly wouldn't shoot my Brazilian contract 1917 with anything other than hardball-pressure loads.
I certainly wouldn't shoot my Brazilian contract 1917 with anything other than hardball-pressure loads.
Uncle Ethan
New member
I guess this is a subject for another thread- lightening up a model 57 for daily carry. 
dakotashooter2
New member
Another excuse for the 41 special is for those real titewads out there like me, is to get some more life out of your 41 mag brass that has split on the mouth. Now I can get another 5-6 loadings out of them. 