.41 magnum bullet - what happened?

The Special .41

+1 on the need for a companion 41 special.
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That was done several years ago as a wildcat, and caught on in a few corners well enough that Starline .41 Special brass is available as a catalog item.

Handloaded ballistics match or exceed the original "Police Load" levels. Sadly, there are no large commercial producers of the ammunition that take it to those levels, instead setting their sights on the CAS crowd. If the gun manufacturers would get together with the ammo makers, and introduce an L-framed, 5-shooter chambered for the cartridge, I think it would fly...albeit in smaller numbers than the well-established .357 Magnum and .44 Special.

The custom revolver smiths are all too happy to make conversions...at a fairly stiff price...and that's another obstacle. As it stands, Many a New Model .357 Vaquero and a few Colts have undergone the transformation to .41 Special, and those who have taken that plunge are pleased with the results...but even that's a fairly small market.

Personally, I wish that Ruger would jump in with a .41 Special New Vaquero. I'd have to break my long-standing hiatus on new gun purchases. I don't look for it to happen, though. There just isn't enough demand for it. Maybe Lipsey will come to the plate with a limited run.
 
Personally, I wish that Ruger would jump in with a .41 Special New Vaquero. I'd have to break my long-standing hiatus on new gun purchases.
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I would be standing in line with you for that offering. Although I have to wonder why a new vaquero couldn't be chambered for the .38-40 and accomplish nearly the same thing. I'm thinking a .38-40, 3 1/2 inch barreled new vaquero with a bird's head grip would be pretty nice.
 
Iv'e been shooting the .41 mag since the 70's and regardless what some people say, it's one of the best revolver calibers out there bar none.
 
41

My 6" Armaloy S&W 57 in 41 mag is the most accurate revolver I have ever shot. It is my go to gun for boar and drops them cleanly. You can cut down 41 mag brass 0.10" and develop a ".41Special" using a 215gr hard cast lead bullet, this is lots of fun to shoot without magnum recoil.
 
re:

And where exactly would you be buying ammunition?
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.41 Special Starline brass...check.

Large pistol primers...check.

Commercial or home-cast 200-210 grain SWC bullets...check.

One pound Alliant Unique...check.

One set of .41 Magnum dies...check.

One Little Dandy powder measure and a #15 rotor...check.
 
limited selection has never been a helpful thing. according to all the old gunwriters, when the cartridge came out there was only two factory loads. an overpowered hunting load that had more recoil, noise, and flash then did the .357 that it was supposed to replace in police circles. and a lower powered target load that had the same respect as a 158 grain standard pressure lrn out of a 38 special.

still doesnt have much ammunition selection from the factories.
 
only two factory loads. an overpowered hunting load that had more recoil, noise, and flash then did the .357 that it was supposed to replace in police circles. and a lower powered target load that had the same respect as a 158 grain standard pressure lrn out of a 38 special.
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There was no, "...lower powered target load...". What it did have is a soft-lead, semi-wadcutter bullet that was intended to be the "police" load. The police load was never considered ineffective. The "...overpowered hunting load..." was not overpowered for hunting any more than factory .44 Magnum loads are overpowered for hunting.
 
the ruger

I agree with the opinions on the Ruger Blackhawk 4 5/8" .41. The whole Bore/Barrel Length/Frame Size just grooves together. The .357 seems chunky compared to the .41 and the 6" barrel seems too long for hip carry. Some shooters don't seem to want/like the adjustable sights on a SA revolver but they don't bother me. I also have a 657 .41 in smith. I had it cut for moon clips and use it in ICORE matches. It is much easier to shoot than the same gun in 44.
 
A lot of the reason that it never caught on with its intended LEO market was that it's only chambered in large-framed revolvers. It's big and it's heavy. For some officers with smaller hands, it was hard to manage. For some of smaller stature, it was hard to carry for an entire shift, and even the big guys complained of its weight.
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People keep bringing up the police load as an example of a .41 Special. I'm 51 years old and been watching this whole drama over the years. I've become convinced that the real problem with the initial introduction wasn't that they skipped out on introducing .41 Special ammo. It's that they didn't make a .41 Special handgun right from the beginning.

I love my N frames. But they can be a bit much in size and weight to carry around all day as a duty gun. I guess we have to ignore the L frame since that comes later... which means S&W should have introduced a K frame in .41 Special. The same size gun that everybody was already using in .38 Special. Match it up with some mild Special loads but which would still have better stopping power than the then ubiquitous .38 Special 158 grain RNL. Security guards and "gun indifferent" cops could have been issued that gun and ammo. The serious gun types could have bought an N frame and used the Magnum police load or even the Specials.

I've got two of the .357 Magnum size OM Rugers that I've had converted to .44 Special and they are wonderful revolvers. They would be just as good in .41 Special.

Gregg
 
My thought is what is the point of a .357 if you have a .41. I may have more .44s than .41s but the old 57 is still my favorate N gun here.
 
41 magnum bullet - what happened?
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OK Poindexter. let's get into the "Way Back" machine. Meaning that we can look at a couple of books and remember a couple of things. In this case Elmer Keith's "Gun Notes" Vol. 1 and John Taffin's "Big Bore Handguns".

The .41 Magnum was introduced in 1964. Cops used revolvers. The U.S. was a nation of wheelgunners. Lead ammo was the round of the day. Reliable JHP ammo for handguns was a decade away.

In the early 60s law enforcement overwhelmingly carried the 38 Spl. round. These were in the K frame S&W guns and similar sized guns from Colt. Those that wanted the .357 Magnum carried an N frame Smith or the Colt Python there was also the excellent K frame "Combat Magnum" which became the M19.

In those days there was a good deal of discussion about a round that could split the difference between the lighter weight bullet and speed of the .357 with the larger caliber size and power of the 44 Magnum. It could potentially have more power than the .357 with less recoil than the 44 Mag. More "stopping power" than the .357 with less recoil than the 44 Mag due to a lighter bullet and bore diameter. It could have both "Great Taste" and be "Less Filling".

Elmer Keith also thought it could be fit in a smaller gun than the N frame Smith and thus reduce weight for all day carry. The lighter weight K frame .357s were selling quickly in all quarters.

Keith rounded up several friends like Bill Jordan and Skeeter Skelton to help him lobby for a new design.

Keith went to speak to his friend at S&W Doug Hellstrom. They felt that if they aimed at law enforcement they could create a market for a new round and maybe gun. He wrote about this in 1963 in Guns and Ammo:

Many officers do not like the weight or the recoil of the heavily loaded 44 Special or the 44 Magnum, and the consensus is that a .41 Magnum is what is needed...The cartridge case should be the same length as our present .357 and .44 Magnums. The bullet should be a Keith design of 200 or 210 grains in weight. The full load should carry a full jacket over the bearing-surface soft point at 1,400 to 1,500 fps velocity...The lighter load should be the Keith-design 200-210 grain cast or swaged lead alloy bullet, plain or copper-coated, at 1,100 fps with pressures well under 20,000 psi...
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Keith felt that the 200-210 grain load at 1,100 fps would be good for general practice or police work. In the latter he said it would be "an excellent man-stopper, far better than the .357 Magnum at it's best"

Doug Hellstrom (of S&W) feels as I do that the ideal police weapon would be a heavy-loaded .44 Special, not available commercially, ... but he also realizes how hard it is to put over to most police organizations, whereas a .41 magnum might well become the accepted police cartridge.
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Hellstrom thought they could bring the gun out in the N frame and maybe a 5 shot K frame.

So Elmer Keith and his friends went and spoke to Colt and Ruger. Colt would do it in a Python and Ruger the Blackhawk and Super Blackhawk. They got the agreement of Remington to produce the ammo.

It came out first in the N frame. The ammo for law enforcement was hotter than Keith later said he wanted and the bullet not what he wanted. The bores leaded badly some reported. The fact was the law enforcement ammo Remington supplied did about 1150 fps with a 200 gr. bullet from a 6" barrel. Which was only a bit more than Keith originally wanted.

What law enforcement did try it opted out after a year or so. They did not want to give up lighter weight guns that they shot fast and accurately for heavier guns that they shot slower and less accurately. The lead rounds did not expand and penetrated excessively in urban environments.

So it went nowhere in law enforcement. It was not good enough to dethrone the 38/357 combo. Even less so when a few years later the 110 and 125 gr. jhp ammo for the .357 was introduced from Lee Jurras and Super-Vel.

PLans to chamber it in other guns faded.

Most handgun hunters could not tell much difference between a hot loaded .41 and the 44 magnum recoil wise. It did not dethrone the 44 Spl./44 mag combo.

Most shooters saw no reason to "split the difference".

But the .41 is a good round. Mike Venturino developed a .41 Spl. for it.

It's a nice round. Like the 44 Spl. the 10mm, 38 Super and a couple of others. It ain't gonna get big but its too good to die.

tipoc
 
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Police

The .41 Magnum Police load was a 210-grain Keith-style SWC with an advertised velocity of 970 fps. It was marketed by Winchester and Remington. The swaged bullet was fairly hard, with Remington consistently upsetting to a greater degree than Winchester's offering in several different mediums. All tested penetrated from here to breakfast in the softer stuff.

Chronograph testing with several lots through a Model 58 Smith didn't bear out the advertised numbers, most barely breaking 900, though one lot of Winchester did make close to 950. Close enough, for gub'mint work or so they say. One lot of Remington did 850 fps. Still roughly equal to .45 Auto on paper, with the added effectiveness of the brutal, flat nose. Not exactly the Hammer of Thor, but no weak sister, either.

None of it was exactly sterling in the accuracy department, but was adequate for its intended purposes.

I didn't have any heavy lead fouling in the Smith or the Ruger Blackhawk that I shot it through, but it did start to show up by the time 40-50 rounds had gone down the pipe. Bullet size was the likely culprit as the bulk of the fouling was in the first inch of barrel.

For those wishing to duplicate it, a cast SWC dropped from the RCBS mould, pushed by 7.5 grains of Unique produces 960-970 fps in my Smith, and 20 fps faster in a 4.62 inch Blackhawk...which isn't the same one that I used all those years ago...and beats the factory load for accuracy hands-down in both guns. With an even 8 grains, it just doesn't get much better for a balance of respectable thump, accuracy, and followup control.

Turn up the fire with the same bullet and 18.5 grains 2400, and it'll shoot through an Elk lengthwise out to about 50 yards. This load isn't recommended in the Smith in large quantities. I shot a Model 57 loose with it pretty quickly some years ago. The Ruger soaks it up and begs for more.
 
As usual 1911tuner is spot on in his posts. Even though the .41 doesn't have the array of different bullet weights that the .357 & .44 have it is better than it used to be. Truth is there really isn't much that can't be done with the 210-220gr swc along with some unique and 2400. 1911tuner turned me on to 8.5gr of unique with the 210gr bullet a couple years ago and it's a winner.

Taking a page from tipoc I took a trip in the "Way back machine" and made up some real Keith loads feateuring the Hensley & Gibbs #258 Keith bullet on top of 19gr of 2400. If anyone thinks the .41 mag is lacking they won't for long after touching one of these loads off. The H&G #258 Keith is the real Keith bullet for the .41. I ended up dropping back to 18.5gr of 2400 as it is a bit more pleasant and hits to the same poa as factory fodder.

The H&G #258 aside I found that mass produced cast bullets as sold by the different vendors are to hard and lube them with LLA for the lower velocities to keep leading down. Other than that one would be hard pressed to find a better general purpose load than 8 to 8.5gr of unique with a 210gr swc bullet.
 
Personally, I wish that Ruger would jump in with a .41 Special New Vaquero. I'd have to break my long-standing hiatus on new gun purchases.
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Although I'd rather have the .41Spl, the .41Mag works in the mid-frame Rugers.
 
Forty One

Although I'd rather have the .41Spl, the .41Mag works in the mid-frame Rugers.
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I know. The hesitation on it being a catalog item is...How long will they stand up to full power ammunition? It wouldn't be a problem for me and others who aren't compulsive over touchin' off a small thermonuclear event every time we pull the trigger...but some people are like that, and Ruger knows it.

Since I have a couple thousand rounds + of .41 Magnum brass, it would work out well for me, but the chances of Ruger tooling up for a .41 Magnum New Vaquero are pretty slim. It would be easier to convince them to do a .41 Special.
 
As far as I know it's not an issue with the existing custom guns but it probably doesn't offer a safety margin Ruger would be comfortable with. Personally, I wouldn't want to do much full power shooting on that platform unless it were a Bisley. I'd love to see them legitimize the .41Spl and believe it or not, bring back the aluminum XR3 grip frame. I know, we can't be satisfied. :p
 
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