41 mag fail in Henry today!!

With galling of the XTP and the case accompanied by a heavy crimp, the bullet may have simply ripped the case in half. If you are feeling a lot of resistance withdrawing a case from the expander, you may be drawing the brass. That would be from a really tight sizer. I cull all my R.P head stamps in other calibers. All my 41 is Starline. I don't pitch them though, since they will fit a lead bullet diameter. The thin case wall of the Remington R.P allows the sizer to leave the ID oversized enough so that a jacketed bullet is not tight enough to even stand for seating. The fatter lead works okay. R.P may not be worth the trouble, if you have alternatives. I see most of mine in 38 Special, often left lying as once-fired at the range.
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Not an expert, just a reporter.
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I agree with your thoughts--I too think what's happening is a combination of brass flow from firing and compression from reloading pressures, along with the inherent thinness of RP's walls creates that brittle band around mid-case. I use hornady carbon-nitride dies with full-case support and bell-flare the mouths to ensure smooth entry of the bullets with as little down pressure as possible. I then use the Lee collet die to apply the crimp, which also resizes the OD of the case upon application ensuring no case bulging from brass displacement--such as you might experience with a cast bullet. The Lee collet does not involve downward pressure as you might encounter with a traditional roll crimp.
 
I sincerely doubt if head space is the issue in this situation given that the case spit so high on the body. I can't for the life of me see how it would be because:

1. The .41 Mag. is a straight walled case.

2. The .41 Mag. head spaces on the rim.

3. Head space issues on a straight walled rimmed case almost always shows up at the case head.

4. If the headspace were far enough off to cause a split in that location, the case would have bulged significantly or even blown out near the case head and likely caused significant issues with the gun.
 
I didn't see this asked, but how does the load do with other brass or factory ammo?

Dunno about headspace; I thought rimmed cartridges "headspaced" on the rims...:rolleyes:
 
I didn't see this asked, but how does the load do with other brass or factory ammo?

Dunno about headspace; I thought rimmed cartridges "headspaced" on the rims...
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I already said I was going to test with other brass--I'll post the results as soon as I've done this. Obviously rimmed cartridges headspace off the rim--but being a lever-action bolt I suppose it's possible (I don't know) that there could be enough play between the closed action and breech/chamber face that it could potentially be a problem. But the evidence from the case failure IMO does not point to a headspace problem--but it never hurts to check anyway.
 
True that lever action actually needs some headspace (head clearance) to function correctly. As long as it doesn't cause problems; misfire, head separation, pierced primers, we just leave it alone. Most fired brass from a lever gun tend to have sticking out primer because of that. The one in the picture shows a flush primer, slightly flattened. The brass has set back. Warm load with weak brass and head clearance.

I agree that excessive headspace is not likely, being a brand new rifle and all. But it may not be impossible either.

-TL
 
True that lever action actually needs some headspace (head clearance) to function correctly. As long as it doesn't cause problems; misfire, head separation, pierced primers, we just leave it alone. Most fired brass from a lever gun tend to have sticking out primer because of that. The one in the picture shows a flush primer, slightly flattened. The brass has set back. Warm load with weak brass and head clearance.

I agree that excessive headspace is not likely, being a brand new rifle and all. But it may not be impossible either.
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The original picture is a bit deceiving--the primer shows the exact same "wear" as fired primers from factory "tame" rounds.

The Henry action is new to me--so I don't mind digging in to see how things work--it's part of "getting to know you." : )
 
Are we talking RP pistol brass calibers or rifle (not pistol that's shot in a rifle)

I shoot a lot of it in rifle and no issues (308 and 30-06)

Most of my 41 mag brass is RP, now its darned old, but I never had issues with it, lot of cycles through the old 41 magnum. Hot stuff too.

Just curious.

I have noticed that FC (rifle) brass is soft, not a problem, but if there is a sticky one in the die its the one that rips apart.

Seems to go a bit sooner than others, but that also was with major bump back of shoulder and no problems since I stopped doing that and started checking shoulder setup and keeping it around -003 to .005
 
41 mag is by definition a straight-walled pistol caliber as far as I know, though it's performance is likely significantly better in a rifle (which reminds me once it warms up a bit I need to do a chrono comparison). The new Henry 41 is adapted from their 44 mag Big Boy steel and so should be robust enough for warmer 41 loads. The RP brass I use came from factory ammo that I bought within the past two years or so--recent vintage so to speak.
 
stagpanther,

There is a substantial increase in muzzle velocity in a .41 Rem Mag Marlin rifle over a handgun. I have some information from load development I can post, which shows the increase. I will find the data tonight.

I have not had any separation like you have. Most of my failed cases are split along the length of the case. The cases I threw away came with the rifle. They could have been shot once or a hundred times.

Excluding this case problem, are you satisfied with your rifle?
 
There is a substantial increase in muzzle velocity in a .41 Rem Mag Marlin rifle over a handgun. I have some information from load development I can post, which shows the increase. I will find the data tonight.

I have not had any separation like you have. Most of my failed cases are split along the length of the case. The cases I threw away came with the rifle. They could have been shot once or a hundred times.

Excluding this case problem, are you satisfied with your rifle?
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I'm guessing I should gain something in the neighborhood of 2 to 300 fps. The Henry is very nice over-all, my only minor complaints are that the lever action itself and trigger pull are a bit on the stiff side, the trigger bothering me more than anything else. I've already manged to scratch the receiver and stock somehow, which is probably a good thing since this is destined to be a woods hunter. : )
 
stagpanther,

I measured the following during load development. I am not going to provide the powder information because the reloads are at the high end.

Remington HTP 210 Grain JSP factory:
S&W 6in 1333 fps, Marlin rifle 1733 - 30% increase over handgun

Hornady XTP - JHP 210 Grain reload:
S&W 6in 1291 fps, Marlin rifle 1652 - 28% increase over handgun

Cast NOE (Keith design) 212 Grain reload:
S&W 6in 1351 fps, Marlin rifle 1670 - 24% increase over handgun
 
Remington HTP 210 Grain JSP factory:
S&W 6in 1333 fps, Marlin rifle 1733 - 30% increase over handgun

Hornady XTP - JHP 210 Grain reload:
S&W 6in 1291 fps, Marlin rifle 1652 - 28% increase over handgun

Cast NOE (Keith design) 212 Grain reload:
S&W 6in 1351 fps, Marlin rifle 1670 - 24% increase over handgun
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Very nice--I figure it's a pretty good increase. I've done good reloads with xtp's and nosler sporting handgun bullets--but my favorite speer gold dots are still hard to find in 41.
 
I shoot a lot of old lever guns that would never pass a headspace check if you added up the undersized brass into the equation. I do not get case separation from it. I like Remington brass overall because it is usually on the large side, but it does seem a lot harder than other brass right from new. Resizeing does seem to make it worse.
 
I shoot a lot of old lever guns that would never pass a headspace check if you added up the undersized brass into the equation. I do not get case separation from it. I like Remington brass overall because it is usually on the large side, but it does seem a lot harder than other brass right from new. Resizeing does seem to make it worse.
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I'm pretty much convinced it's a combination of stretch/flow and then compression upon sizing and seating that creates a "brittleness band."
 
I've never, ever seen that before. Interesting that the mentioned incidents all involve .41 Mag. and RP brass. For it to break in a perfect ring means something is guiding the split. The split looks way too low to be where the bullet seats, so I'd be inclined to think it is in the case design. Some 9mm brass has a "step" in the sidewall where the factory bullet seats. Remington has a habit of decorating their cases with "cannelures" and crease lines that serve no purpose I can figure. The point where they split, just above the case head, probably takes the most stress in a straight wall case.

People shoot different length cartridges in the other pistol caliber lever guns that headspace on the rim.
 
Because of the way most lever guns lock up at the rear, the bolt can flex when shot and thus cause the brass to stretch, especially with straight-walled handgun calibers. Stretch brass too many times and you get what you have there.......case head separation.This is why many manuals recommend using only virgin or once fired brass for legitimate magnum loadings in revolver caliber carbines. Just the nature of the beast.
 
My feeling is you have to have more than stretch--a failure simply from strtch or brass flow I would expect to see more of a split type failure. This is an almost perfectly symmetric "snap off" and I think it's too much of a coincidence that others have experienced an identical type of failure. I think the brass became excessively brittle along a "fault line" that is a weak spot in the case that stretches and then is compressed back when reloaded.
 
Yeah, that sounds about right. If it is really stretching out, the brass would measure a huge OAL difference (Or maybe a diameter swell) before resizing. It is not like a shouldered round that has a "Stop point" to really push the bolt back when fired.
 
My feeling is you have to have more than stretch--a failure simply from strtch or brass flow I would expect to see more of a split type failure.
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The pics in the OP are of classic example of "case head separation".

This from the Western Powders website.

Case head separation is caused by the firing and resizing process which requires the case to stretch and then be re-compressed. Case head separations are just part of handloading, but they can be avoided by thorough case examination after each firing. The visible bright line that shows a case head is about to fail is more easily seen on cleaned brass, so make sure to inspect the brass once it has emerged from the tumbler.
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