I have a question for people who shoot the smaller .17 or .22 caliber centerfire rifles. calibers like 204 Ruger, 220 Swift, 17 Remington, or 17 Fireball that are moving 4000 fps. If you reload the ammo and change the amount of powder to get it down to 3500-3700fps would/does that make the barrel last longer? How long does a barrel last if it is moving 4000 fps? just looking for opinions on this.
4000 fps rifles
- Thread starter kuca_2004
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reynolds357
New member
My experience with the Swift is that the three rifles I have had in it were accurate only when very close to max loads. I never worked with reduced loads because I had plenty of .223 Remingtons if I wanted to shoot .223 Remington velocity. My average barrel life on the SWIFT was 800ish.
EIGHT HUNDRED!!!!!!! wow, that's definitely not for me. I think the 2-3 thousand round burnout on a 22-250 is bearable, anything under one thousand and I would have to pass unless I winning competitions with it.
but like he said, why download it? especially if your "planning" to get one, just get the caliber that does exactly what your downloaded ammo does, a .223. And it's not too hard to get 4000 out of a longer barreled .223 if you wanted that kind performance as an option. get a 1:9 twist 223 with a 20+" barrel and you can throw 35gr VMAX pretty dang fast.
but like he said, why download it? especially if your "planning" to get one, just get the caliber that does exactly what your downloaded ammo does, a .223. And it's not too hard to get 4000 out of a longer barreled .223 if you wanted that kind performance as an option. get a 1:9 twist 223 with a 20+" barrel and you can throw 35gr VMAX pretty dang fast.
The throat erodes and develops small cracks from the heat.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/borescope/
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/tag/borescope/
603Country
New member
With my first 220 Swift barrel, the throat finally eroded enough that I couldn't load a bullet close to the lands anymore. And accuracy was a bit worse. I have no idea how many bullets went through that barrel.
FrankenMauser
New member
Though the universe may be plunged into an paradoxical infinite loop, I'll risk double-quoting myself for the sake of the .220 Swift...
From a similar thread:
My rifle saw primarily 'full house' / max velocity loads. While my father owned it, it saw quite a few 'over-flowing house' (over max) loads.
Yet, regular care and, apparently, a quality barrel to start with let that .220 Swift barrel go on to live a second life on another Ruger M77.
More than once, my .220 Swift went from "shot out" to just plain shooting, with a thorough de-coppering.
800 round barrel life? Sure... maybe between cleanings!
From a similar thread:
FrankenMauser said:
My rifle saw primarily 'full house' / max velocity loads. While my father owned it, it saw quite a few 'over-flowing house' (over max) loads.
Yet, regular care and, apparently, a quality barrel to start with let that .220 Swift barrel go on to live a second life on another Ruger M77.
More than once, my .220 Swift went from "shot out" to just plain shooting, with a thorough de-coppering.
800 round barrel life? Sure... maybe between cleanings!
My first .22-250 was a nice bolt action and the throat erroded to the point where I could not load long enough to maintain accuracy. I spent the money and had 1/2" cut off, rethreaded, re-chambered and re-crowned for $200. I shot about 200 rounds out of that rifle to make sure all was good and then I sold it. I then bought a .22-250 barrel for my Encore, and while not as accurate, I did get a little more life out of the barrel. When it was shot out, I sold it to a local gunsmith for $100 and bought another.
That was all before I had a .223. I only shoot the .22-250 past 400 yards now and I don't put more than 100 rounds on it over a weekend and then I use a foaming bore cleaner. I am getting a little over 3K on a barrel, so this current one will last me a while as I shoot it less and less.
I run 50 grain bullets at about 3900 fps and I have found that drifting away from that does not help much. I tried 60 grain bullets at 3600 and the accuracy suffered. If I am inside 400, I am shooting .22Mag and .223s. Even past 400, I will sometimes be shooting the .243.
For me, better glass, ballistic computers and experience have relegated the .22-250 to a back seat. I'd rather use a .223 with 10K+ barrel life and dial than mess with the .22-250 most of the time. Mine gets shot more by friends than me over the past few years, where the flatter trajectory helps a tad. If it was not for the Encore, I would not even have a caliber that goes over 3500 anymore.
That was all before I had a .223. I only shoot the .22-250 past 400 yards now and I don't put more than 100 rounds on it over a weekend and then I use a foaming bore cleaner. I am getting a little over 3K on a barrel, so this current one will last me a while as I shoot it less and less.
I run 50 grain bullets at about 3900 fps and I have found that drifting away from that does not help much. I tried 60 grain bullets at 3600 and the accuracy suffered. If I am inside 400, I am shooting .22Mag and .223s. Even past 400, I will sometimes be shooting the .243.
For me, better glass, ballistic computers and experience have relegated the .22-250 to a back seat. I'd rather use a .223 with 10K+ barrel life and dial than mess with the .22-250 most of the time. Mine gets shot more by friends than me over the past few years, where the flatter trajectory helps a tad. If it was not for the Encore, I would not even have a caliber that goes over 3500 anymore.
reynolds357
New member
The Swift earned an very un-deserved bad reputation.
1. It was originally marketed with a twist rate that made the rifle worthless for ANYTHING but varmint.
2. The original barrels were of low quality.
3. Most of the chambers in the early rifles look like they were cut by drunk monkeys on Friday afternoon. The least bit of erosion had a huge impact on accuracy due to the fact the throats were cut so poorly in the first place.
4. The early reloading data for them was hot as he.. and it contributed greatly to pre-mature barrel wear.
1. It was originally marketed with a twist rate that made the rifle worthless for ANYTHING but varmint.
2. The original barrels were of low quality.
3. Most of the chambers in the early rifles look like they were cut by drunk monkeys on Friday afternoon. The least bit of erosion had a huge impact on accuracy due to the fact the throats were cut so poorly in the first place.
4. The early reloading data for them was hot as he.. and it contributed greatly to pre-mature barrel wear.
603Country
New member
Good grief, Reynolds, where in the world do you get your information? The twist was originally set at 1 in 14 because it WAS a varmint caliber. The original barrels were just fine, though maybe not quite the quality of today's barrel steel. And who told you the chambers were all screwed up on early rifles? That's not true at all. As to barrel life, people burned out barrels shooting too long with hot barrels. I'm guessing, on that, since it was the first really screamer of a caliber, nobody knew what to expect from barrel life and overdid it with their wonderful new gopher blaster.
My 220, which is a tang safety M77 from the early 70's, shot amazingly well when I bought it used off a New Mexico cowboy and continued to do so even when the throat was quite eroded on that first barrel.
That rifle and caliber were extremely impressive. I was cruising along in my 'company' jeep one day, with a load of guest hunters, and we were in search of coyotes. I had the windshield folded down on the jeep and my 220 across my lap with the barrel pointing outboard when one of the hunters (who knew about my Swift with the 10 power Lyman scope) told me to stop. He pointed off in the distance at a crow sitting in the top of a dead tree. About 250 to 300 yards away. He said "can you hit that crow?". I shut off the engine and told them to quit squirming and to hold still. I cranked off the round and the crow turned into a black donut of feathers. Lots of OOOOO's and AAAAHH's, and everybody wanted a Swift, but couldn't easily find one. With that old scope and no turrets or mildots, and just the basic knowledge of having it sighted in at 200 and knowing the drops at 300, 400, and 500, I could drop a coyote at a long way off. Still got the gun and the fond memories.
My 220, which is a tang safety M77 from the early 70's, shot amazingly well when I bought it used off a New Mexico cowboy and continued to do so even when the throat was quite eroded on that first barrel.
That rifle and caliber were extremely impressive. I was cruising along in my 'company' jeep one day, with a load of guest hunters, and we were in search of coyotes. I had the windshield folded down on the jeep and my 220 across my lap with the barrel pointing outboard when one of the hunters (who knew about my Swift with the 10 power Lyman scope) told me to stop. He pointed off in the distance at a crow sitting in the top of a dead tree. About 250 to 300 yards away. He said "can you hit that crow?". I shut off the engine and told them to quit squirming and to hold still. I cranked off the round and the crow turned into a black donut of feathers. Lots of OOOOO's and AAAAHH's, and everybody wanted a Swift, but couldn't easily find one. With that old scope and no turrets or mildots, and just the basic knowledge of having it sighted in at 200 and knowing the drops at 300, 400, and 500, I could drop a coyote at a long way off. Still got the gun and the fond memories.
The cause of throat erosion is not limited to "hot" loads or certain calibers, and there is no prevention (except maybe Stellite barrels) and no cure. In spite of some claims, there is no lubricant, bullet shape, rifling shape, or annointment with some special concoction that will preven bore erosion as long as the laws of physics are not repealed. As long as inertia affects bullets, and as long as high speed gas leaks past the lazy bullet, throat erosion will continue.
Whether throat erosion will ruin accuracy depends on how far it has progressed. If the bullet exits the case mouth and there is room for it to skew, it will, and that will ruin accuracy. And there will be room if erosion has gone very far. (Don't confuse throat erosion with corrosion (rust) resulting from corrosive primer residue, or with muzzle wear resulting from cleaning from the muzzle; they are entirely different conditions.)
Jim
Whether throat erosion will ruin accuracy depends on how far it has progressed. If the bullet exits the case mouth and there is room for it to skew, it will, and that will ruin accuracy. And there will be room if erosion has gone very far. (Don't confuse throat erosion with corrosion (rust) resulting from corrosive primer residue, or with muzzle wear resulting from cleaning from the muzzle; they are entirely different conditions.)
Jim
When the .204 Ruger cartridge was introduced, one of the supposed benefits was longer barrel life compared to other 4000fps cartridges. I don't have enough experience with any thers to speak to that but my Savage 12FV has 2500-2700 rounds down the tube and it still holds the same .5in groups it did when new. Granted I usually load 39-40gr bullets for it, at less than 4k fps but right at a maximum load. It's a heck of a lot of fun watching sage rats basically detonate with a solid hit.